Native Juniper, Mystery of the East U.S.

TN_Jim

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A few threads have made me reassess this species. Being the most abundant native juniper east of the big muddy (at least in my area), this confusing tree perhaps has been subjugated to the dregs of the bonsai community, seemingly due to the species reluctance to be treated like a common juniper or conifer, its persistence of reverting to juvenile foliage when worked, ~erect growth habit, and elongate foliage, etc..


Still, I have seen enough of them in nature to know that it is an amazing species...can a non grafted one be put in bonsai pot, or always training?

They persist here in habitats that are the most xeric and weather beaten...this is my first thought..get form, then treat like a starving cactus with very sensitive roots..it's not abuse..I don't even think mild fire would be..I honestly don't know...


What I have learned from them (wild collected)

Backbud on old wood
Full sun
Thirsty (dehydrated) is fine
Mild branch pruning no problem
Know where you want to bend it (cambium is not play dough)
Grow back from annual chops
Retain root ball, or it will die
Leave be for a year and scale foliage will begin or show signs of returning
If you browse it like a deer, it will become sharp
Even sharp foliage is miniscule compared to other conifers (is this really the problem?)
(gloves off- or on? cut the fingers off? fingerless gloves?)
Grow and starve?
These get old, why rush?


What are you doing, doing different (wins and losses), and what have you learned to ERC into bonsai?

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Adair M

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A few threads have made me reassess this species. Being the most abundant native juniper east of the big muddy (at least in my area), this confusing tree perhaps has been subjugated to the dregs of the bonsai community, seemingly due to the species reluctance to be treated like a common juniper or conifer, its persistence of reverting to juvenile foliage when worked, ~erect growth habit, and elongate foliage, etc..


Still, I have seen enough of them in nature to know that it is an amazing species...can a non grafted one be put in bonsai pot, or always training?

They persist here in habitats that are the most xeric and weather beaten...this is my first thought..get form, then treat like a starving cactus with very sensitive roots..it's not abuse..I don't even think mild fire would be..I honestly don't know...


What I have learned from them (wild collected)

Backbud on old wood
Full sun
Thirsty (dehydrated) is fine
Mild branch pruning no problem
Know where you want to bend it (cambium is not play dough)
Grow back from annual chops
Retain root ball, or it will die
Leave be for a year and scale foliage will begin or show signs of returning
If you browse it like a deer, it will become sharp
Even sharp foliage is miniscule compared to other conifers (is this really the problem?)
(gloves off- or on? cut the fingers off? fingerless gloves?)
Grow and starve?
These get old, why rush?


What are you doing, doing different (wins and losses), and what have you learned to ERC into bonsai?

View attachment 210764View attachment 210766View attachment 210767
If I may give a respectful rebuttal...

First of all, I have nothing against using native species. If there is a native tree that makes good bonsai, then by all means go for it!

On the other hand, some species are better suited for bonsai than others, and so when two similar species are compared, and the image is easier to achieve with one than the other, why use the poorer species?

If the native species has some characteristic that makes it special in some way, that would make it worth the extra effort to tame it. If not, why bother?

Let me ask, when choosing between two trees of the same species to work on to become bonsai, do you select the one with better bonsai characteristics? Better movement? Better Nebari? Better branch placement? Sure you do! You would choose the tree more suitable.

I argue that choosing species to work with should be just as selective as which tree to work.

The tree you picture is nothing special. You could easily grow that trunk using a shimpaku whip in a couple years. And not have that leggy, spiky foliage to deal with.

If you say you are playing with this tree to learn how to manage the foliage for when you collect a nice one, I would say that even then there are alternatives. Grafting on better foliage to a trunk with poor foliage is relatively easy.

Now, if you have the time to mess with your ERC just for the heck of it, then fine. Personally, I would rather spend my time working on a piece of material that I know will eventually settle into a pleasing image.
 

GGB

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@JoeH it's juniperus virginiana. I dug up a pretty nice one ... last year? There's a pic of it in the "what do I do with it" thread. I don't (didn't) do juniper then and sold it for $90. It sold the first day it was listed which makes me think I should have asked a lot more ha.
I see Adair's point, I love natives, in fact, I only have native trees right now. I'll always keep an eye out for great ERC. I actually know of a second better one. Same height thicker trunk more foliage, all adult. BUT! If I was serious about juniper bonsai I'd probably be looking to other species... Maybe? I dunno..
Maybe I'll dig up this tree and spring and sell it for $300. Haha I'll take pics next time I visit it. It's on the top edge of a cliff and I hate heights
 
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These are everywhere in my neck of the woods. I wonder if you could graft better foliage on like Adair suggested? They can develop pretty cool trunks naturally (especially along ridges and fence lines) it might be worth the experiment.
 

sorce

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I'll take this foliage over NANA all day.
(Unrelated to Daves comment.)

The Juvenile.....

See what you see....

I think a lot of people see "comments" over the tree itself.

"Adult foliage is better"
"Branches die randomly"
"Shimpaku Shimpaku"
"Blah blah"

Just continue to make them convincing.

Don't confuse them with the more sideways growing grey owl. (There is a good one on FB in Poland. It isnt ERC)

In time...

S
 

JoeH

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@JoeH it's juniperus virginiana. I dug up a pretty nice one ... last year? There's a pic of it in the "what do I do with it" thread. I don't (didn't) do juniper then and sold it for $90. It sold the first day it was listed which makes me think I should have asked a lot more ha.
I see Adair's point, I love natives, in fact, I only have native trees right now. I'll always keep an eye out for great ERC. I actually know of a second better one. Same height thicker trunk more foliage, all adult. BUT! If I was serious about juniper bonsai I'd probably be looking to other species... Maybe? I dunno..
Maybe I'll dig up this tree and spring and sell it for $300. Haha I'll take pics next time I visit it. It's on the top edge of a cliff and I hate heights
oh ok, familiar with that one. I tend to do native stuff too. Some native cultivars too.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@TN_Jim
You didn't mention the scientific name until later, so I wasn't sure which Juniper species you were talking about.
If you want to go locally native, the only juniper I saw that wikipedia lists as native to the Nashville area, you are stuck with J virginiana.

If you want to go ''not too far away, straight north, go with Juniperus communis, the common juniper or Juniper horizontalis, which is native to a few locations along Lake Michigan in IL. IN & MI. Both species have a better track record as bonsai than ERC, J. virginiana.

There are a dozen junipers native to the USA, if you would include species from more than 300 miles away, you have quite a range of choices available.

Of course, if the goal is to only use trees growing in your backyard, ERC is it, the only Juniper native to TN. I have messed around with ERC long enough to know that the harsh comments about its suitability are mostly learned from bitter experience. Those dogging ERC are doing so from experience. They are trying to save you time.

Do get yourself a shimpaku or two, and grow those as ''non-natives'', and you will see how much easier than ERC they are to grow out and style.
 

GGB

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Yeah I have seen some cool examples of juniperus communis. haven't noticed any in my immediate area but I consider anything in a 50/70 mile radius native.

The argument for native here (I think) isn't against shimpaku, I think it's probably more for free yamadori (with experience and knowldge) or at least a chance at recovering a trunk with some decent size to it. Natives are great because they know and enjoy the local weather. Plus I have weird mid atlantic pride.. Shimpaku are certainly not the most expensive species used but they cost a lot more for a 3" trunk than climbing up a rock wall and claiming a bent up 30 year old tree.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Yeah I have seen some cool examples of juniperus communis. haven't noticed any in my immediate area but I consider anything in a 50/70 mile radius native.

The argument for native here (I think) isn't against shimpaku, I think it's probably more for free yamadori (with experience and knowldge) or at least a chance at recovering a trunk with some decent size to it. Natives are great because they know and enjoy the local weather. Plus I have weird mid atlantic pride.. Shimpaku are certainly not the most expensive species used but they cost a lot more for a 3" trunk than climbing up a rock wall and claiming a bent up 30 year old tree.
I don’t see an argument was against Shimpaku, but rather, against ERC as a viable Bonsai species, and a caution against letting ERC shape your view of junipers in general, because they respond so badly to bonsai training. Just because they’re native doesn’t mean they’re worth the effort, but most people have to learn that for themselves. I did?.
 

Dav4

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I am proud to say I've never kept a potted ERC... came close to digging a few wind battered and stunted one many years ago down on beach at Cape Cod... glad I didn't because I'm sure they'd be dead and the experience would have been extremely painful physically and emotionally.
 

GGB

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Fair enough, I had to learn myself with EWP and I guess letting ERC ruin juniper would be ashame. Although I'd HAVE to argue that ERC has more potential than EWP. Hey, I'm just here to side track!

I'm going to try learning juniper techniques on a parsonii, for the ultimate goal of using on ERC, grey owl or communis. Brian did your head explode?! in all reality if I actually fall in love with juniper I'll probably wind up with foemina and shimpaku but for now I'm in denial.

P.s @Brian Van Fleet , I kid. but to be honest I do bonsai at a lower level than you and am completely content with a rugged less "finished" tree in tradtional terms. Although time may change that, I always respect the input and should probably aim higher than I do haha.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Fair enough, I had to learn myself with EWP and I guess letting ERC ruin juniper would be ashame. Although I'd HAVE to argue that ERC has more potential than EWP. Hey, I'm just here to side track!

I'm going to try learning juniper techniques on a parsonii, for the ultimate goal of using on ERC, grey owl or communis. Brian did your head explode?! in all reality if I actually fall in love with juniper I'll probably wind up with foemina and shimpaku but for now I'm in denial.

P.s @Brian Van Fleet , I kid. but to be honest I do bonsai at a lower level than you and am completely content with a rugged less "finished" tree in tradtional terms. Although time may change that, I always respect the input and should probably aim higher than I do haha.
Like anything, if it’s worth doing at all, it’s worth doing well. If you’re going to spend time learning bonsai, spend your time on the best material available, using the best technique you can at the given time. Both will likely improve as you go.
 
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Adair M

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P.s @Brian Van Fleet , I kid. but to be honest I do bonsai at a lower level than you and am completely content with a rugged less "finished" tree in tradtional terms. Although time may change that, I always respect the input and should probably aim higher than I do haha.
That’s like saying, “I want to learn to draw, but I’m unwilling to sharpen my pencil”.
 

GGB

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That’s like saying, “I want to learn to draw, but I’m unwilling to sharpen my pencil”.
Hey, I never said I didnt want to learn. I'm just being realistic. I'm not on a path leading to exhibition quality material. I did say that may one day change. But currently, owning a "pretty damn good" bonsai one day is lofty enough.
 

Adair M

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Hey, I never said I didnt want to learn. I'm just being realistic. I'm not on a path leading to exhibition quality material. I did say that may one day change. But currently, owning a "pretty damn good" bonsai one day is lofty enough.
Well, it starts with good material. It doesn’t have to be expensive material, just material that has good characteristics for bonsai.

In South Georgia, there are Southern Magnolia trees. Great nebari! Beautiful bark! But, no matter what you do, you cannot reduce their leaves! (Or flowers!). They always grow to be 8 inches, if not more! As a species, they just won’t bonsai.

If you want to have a bonsai that looks like a magnolia, you have to use something else, like an azalea, or a boxwood.

The sooner that you accept the fact that not every tree makes good bonsai, the sooner you will start making better bonsai with more suitable species! Think about it: do all trees make good lumber? No! Some trees just don’t make good bonsai.
 

TN_Jim

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First, apologies for not putting J. virginiana in the initial post, 'ERC' there is vague, if not completely lacking transparency with the word mystery in the thread title, potentially implying some kinda i.d. issue etc..

The tree you picture is nothing special. You could easily grow that trunk using a shimpaku whip in a couple years. And not have that leggy, spiky foliage to deal with.

If you say you are playing with this tree to learn how to manage the foliage for when you collect a nice one, I would say that even then there are alternatives. Grafting on better foliage to a trunk with poor foliage is relatively easy.

Now, if you have the time to mess with your ERC just for the heck of it, then fine. Personally, I would rather spend my time working on a piece of material that I know will eventually settle into a pleasing image.

Adair, thank you (and all) for your thoughts. Your trees and experience reflect your knowledge & I respect yours and others opinions greatly. I have missed several posts throughout the day having been way out in the country with family, so to maintain some fluidity, other comments within other posts may be addressed here without direct acknowledgement (basically everyone:rolleyes:;)).

To be clear, the purpose of this thread was to attempt to discover some useful means of making the qualities that make ERC a certified shit species for bonsai, into something perhaps more manageable (thus the mystery). Also, to understand the actual techniques that others have done with no success, or some... Also, to invite anyone to post their ERC and discuss successes and failures alike toward making predominantly foliage issues not such a mystery....all the while bearing in mind that these issues may be a pandora's box or biologically impossible to overcome. I believe I have read every ERC thread on the forum, have heeded and respect their contents, and partially (and reluctantly) made this thread out of not wanting to step on others toes.

This is the second year I have collected and kept this species, in addition to having less than two years of bonsai experience. I decided to stop collecting ERC this past early-spring, humbly accepting that it was a relative waste of time due to its problems and the availability of more suitable species. I gave away several of the ERC to friends who planted them in their landscape and kept four (three pictured above).

I do not think these four are anything to boast of or exceptional, but they do have some character, and have basically been ignored all year aside from watering. However, can a a shimpaku whip really have the bark, 2'' flare-1.25'' trunk (second tree of post one), and that devils pitchfork deadwood in a couple years, even ground grown? Again, i'm not bragging on this roadside collection, i'm just not sure of that assertion.

Basically, I am willing to experiment with these trees and if they die, so be it. There are thousands of them right out my doorstep as @cheap_walmart_art alluded to. It is frustrating to see this predominant native juniper in such abundance (essentially only one here, thanks @Leo in N E Illinois -I wasn't aware of the locality of others close by..and I really appreciate what you are saying with others like yourself here trying to save time and heartache). I don't want a white whale, especially if the meat is vile.

Should I kill these four trees through simple experimentation, I don't see momma Gaia striking me down for this one. That said, along slopes (of limestone especially) in TN there are some extremely gnarled ERC to be had, some of which I believe are very old. If at the end of the day it comes down to ERC foliage is truly a lost cause as so many other experienced folks assert, than perhaps a few of these true natural gems could be a worthwhile pursuit for bonsai if the grafting of other foliage is the endgame...perhaps not.

Bjorn released a podcast interview today with yamadori collectors Dan & Steve from Wyoming based, Backcountry Bonsai in which they assert, the most interesting finds (and least) are best left until utmost confidence in technique and survival is had. These are strong words I could not agree more with.

In addition to those new to bonsai, can those who have fought or fighting eastern red cedar and been compelled to stop or not, can you please explain what are the things you have done expecting to resolve or fix its issues. What extremes did you go to? Did you treat it like an established juniper bonsai for five years and take it off your bench?

Here is something I have done. The four pictured in the original post I stopped watering like my other trees. I only water the foliage and very briefly on soil surface (just enough to make de change color, definitely not run through). One of these four has developed scale foliage at the ends of branches. Could be nothing. I also want to starve them. :confused:

My hypothesis is that they do not prefer quills, can retain more water and nutrients in scale foliage, and depriving them of water and nutrients can force them into changing foliar morphology to suit biological requirements. This is not new. Has anyone else tested this w/ ERC?

ERC you bastard!!!

@GGB...thats whats up & what you said:cool:

Thanks
 
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