Native Juniper, Mystery of the East U.S.

Jm91080

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First, apologies for not putting J. virginiana in the initial post, 'ERC' there is vague, if not completely lacking transparency with the word mystery in the thread title, potentially implying some kinda i.d. issue etc..



Adair, thank you (and all) for your thoughts. Your trees and experience reflect your knowledge & I respect yours and others opinions greatly. I have missed several posts throughout the day having been way out in the country with family, so to maintain some fluidity, other comments within other posts may be addressed here without direct acknowledgement (basically everyone:rolleyes:;)).

To be clear, the purpose of this thread was to attempt to discover some useful means of making the qualities that make ERC a certified shit species for bonsai, into something perhaps more manageable (thus the mystery). Also, to understand the actual techniques that others have done with no success, or some... Also, to invite anyone to post their ERC and discuss successes and failures alike toward making predominantly foliage issues not such a mystery....all the while bearing in mind that these issues may be a pandora's box or biologically impossible to overcome. I believe I have read every ERC thread on the forum, have heeded and respect their contents, and partially (and reluctantly) made this thread out of not wanting to step on others toes.

This is the second year I have collected and kept this species, in addition to having less than two years of bonsai experience. I decided to stop collecting ERC this past early-spring, humbly accepting that it was a relative waste of time due to its problems and the availability of more suitable species. I gave away several of the ERC to friends who planted them in their landscape and kept four (three pictured above).

I do not think these four are anything to boast of or exceptional, but they do have some character, and have basically been ignored all year aside from watering. However, can a a shimpaku whip really have the bark, 2'' flare-1.25'' trunk (second tree of post one), and that devils pitchfork deadwood in a couple years, even ground grown? Again, i'm not bragging on this roadside collection, i'm just not sure of that assertion.

Basically, I am willing to experiment with these trees and if they die, so be it. There are thousands of them right out my doorstep as @cheap_walmart_art alluded to. It is frustrating to see this predominant native juniper in such abundance (essentially only one here, thanks @Leo in N E Illinois -I wasn't aware of the locality of others close by..and I really appreciate what you are saying with others like yourself here trying to save time and heartache). I don't want a white whale, especially if the meat is vile.

Should I kill these four trees through simple experimentation, I don't see momma Gaia striking me down for this one. That said, along slopes (of limestone especially) in TN there are some extremely gnarled ERC to be had, some of which I believe are very old. If at the end of the day it comes down to ERC foliage is truly a lost cause as so many other experienced folks assert, than perhaps a few of these true natural gems could be a worthwhile pursuit for bonsai if the grafting of other foliage is the endgame...perhaps not.

Bjorn released a podcast interview today with yamadori collectors Dan & Steve from Wyoming based, Backcountry Bonsai in which they assert, the most interesting finds (and least) are best left until utmost confidence in technique and survival is had. These are strong words I could not agree more with.

In addition to those new to bonsai, can those who have fought or fighting eastern red cedar and been compelled to stop or not, can you please explain what are the things you have done expecting to resolve or fix its issues. What extremes did you go to? Did you treat it like an established juniper bonsai for five years and take it off your bench?

Here is something I have done. The four pictured in the original post I stopped watering like my other trees. I only water the foliage and very briefly on soil surface (just enough to make de change color, definitely not run through). One of these four has developed scale foliage at the ends of branches. Could be nothing. I also want to starve them. :confused:

My hypothesis is that they do not prefer quills, can retain more water and nutrients in scale foliage, and depriving them of water and nutrients can force them into changing foliar morphology to suit biological requirements. This is not new. Has anyone else tested this w/ ERC?

ERC you bastard!!!

@GGB...thats whats up & what you said:cool:

Thanks
I have an erc thats 16 yrs into life on a large flat oval tray, it was prob 5 or 6 yrs old when I collected it. Its a root over rock, very informal upright, used to be very wired windswept ill post a pic tomorrow, the foliage change comes with age, in my experience.
 

Jm91080

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You just have to be patient and let erc grow into their size. Im probably 80 percent clip and grow tree collector, and 20 percent bonsai dabbler, I have prob 40 or so trees at any given time, lately ive been hunting natural erc/exotic juniper hybrids , the hardiness and trunks of erc with the tighter foliage of other junipers without a grafting
 

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Jm91080

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This is a natural erc hybrid, dug this year, ill let it recover till next spring, I havent touched it yet.
 

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Owen Reich

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Juniperus virginiana are suitable for bonsai. The problem is, most have little to no character. The roadside bushhogged ones don’t seem to be worth digging most of the time (and I’ve checked). There are thousands on the bluffs in Tennessee that would be suitable, but without repelling gear and nerves of steel, not accessible. Unfortunately the cliffs aren’t solid rock faces. I’d have a ton if easier to get. I’ve owned a few good ones, and they can attain mature foliage sustainably.

Are they worth it? I’d say yes if you can collect and stabilize an old one with character. Not easy to do. The Asheville Arboretum has 3. A huge nice one still in the back greenhouses, a medium sized one that was the logo tree this year, and a small twisted trunk that I donated.

I’ve been told they are almost identical genetically to Rocky Mountain Juniper. I’m allergic to RMJ but not to ERC.
 
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Joe Dupre'

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I think I'm one of those kind of people that like the challenge of making something out of nothing. Hey, anyone can make a silk purse out of............SILK. I"m in kind of the same boat, location-wise, with conifers as someone living in Arizona is with Bald Cypress. Not many conifers around, so I revel in the fact of finding one close to home and seeing what I can make of it. There are so few native evergreen conifers around here that driving down the road in late winter, all I look for is something green against the bare trunks and dead leaves. That is invariably ERC. Now, it would be easy to go to a large nursery and BUY some kind of nice juniper, but that doesn't always appeal to me.

As far as character, I've found a few that are in the early stages with decent trunks and potential. This one was a year from collection in this picture. I've since done a little carving and styling, but it needs more time. It started out 4 times as tall and twice as wide. It's filling in a bit. One thing.........ERC doesn't seem to bud back close to the trunk.
100_2037.JPG
 

Owen Reich

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Please take what I said knowing my bias comes from seeing thousands of trees and having the ability to work with them more easily than a practitioner who has a day job and other responsibilities. When I started doing bonsai, I was completely content with roadside cedars and little maple seedlings. I recently found some “year 3” pictures of my collection from way back. At the time, they were awesome.
 

Joe Dupre'

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Owen, I understand where you're coming from. You admitted you thought they were awesome at the time. Cool. You can't ask for more than that. As you got more experience , your "awesome level" tended to rise. Still cool. Sometimes you just have to go through the learning curve. But, then again, maybe you don't. No one says every bonsai enthusiast has to strive to be the absolute best bonsai master he is capable of being. Some people might just like to fool around with cool trees. I don't care if I ever bring home a ribbon from a bonsai show. I fool around with the trees for ME..........and that's cool too.
 

Jm91080

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Eastern red cedar is a hard tree to hunt. There are wide variations within true j virginiana, and there are also natural hybrids between it and every other native juniper species which it shares a border with. To complicate matters it hybridizes very easily with a lot of common landscaping junipers. There are several areas around here that have massive western junipers as decorative plantings from way back when, but now for about a quarter mile around them its a crapshoot mix of genetics, I've also encountered natural virginiana/horizontalis hybrids, I have one that I collected I liked it so much. Ive also encountered naturalized rogue exotic juniper populations , I always thought of j horizontalis as mundane, safe nursery stock bonsai material until I found a wild colony fighting for life on a rocky hill (I have my eye on one, but havent collected yet, out of respect) and im still trying to sort out which pads go to what trunks and roots, its a real mess lol.
 

TN_Jim

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Very interesting, I had no idea about such hybridization. How would you say this is most identifiable -field/morphology-wise? From looking at your photos I would say possibly more compact foliage...perhaps less leggy; however, I've seen many ERC that have the same traits (pictured) in the wild...especially on south-facing limestone ledges where they have little competition for light. Seems like it could be tough to pin down visually. I had a little bit of trouble in digging into this.

Also, @Owen Reich -close genetic matching of ERC and Rocky Mountain Juniper is also new to me, and equally fascinating....especially considering how and why these natives evolved apart. Evidently they too also hybridize easily where ranges overlap (USDA/Forest Service..).
1540580190908.png

I found this phylogeny of Juniperus (and more) on the 4th page of this paper...pretty rad....J. virginiana and J. scopulorum are indeed extremely close here:
https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2010.03351.x
 

Jm91080

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They arent great pictures, these trees came from a very shady wooded area, the examples in this hybrid colony that are in full sun look almost identical to the exotic parents, im leaning toward chinensis for the id on the exotic parent. The larger hybrid offspring really stick out when you see them next to regular erc's in their area. Ill take a picture of the parents and post them
 

Jm91080

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The foliage and overall structures look like chinensis to me, the dense foliage, the twisting pointed branches, ive spent time outwest, and whatever the exotic parents are ive also seen them as landscaping on the 101 in northern california
 

Jm91080

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Even the spiky juvenile foliage is arranged much more densely and orderly than an erc, down to how the individual needles are stacked.
 

Jm91080

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Im into hunting feral yamadori, exotics that have naturalized or hybridized, I'm currently pursuing a colony of japanese sawtooth oaks that are rumored to be near me. I have access to feral quaking aspens, feral white (Mediterranean poplar), gray poplars (another exotic/native hybrid), exotic hollies, feral juniper horizontalis, I get out there and hunt. my town has several timeshare condo developments that have been around for 50 years now, when they first built they dropped plenty of cash on expensive landscaping. Now I go talk to the rural landowners that border them, and when I want to hunt exotics I go there and collect hybrids and offspring.
 
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