Native Junipers??

[Vance Wood]

Here is a question to you Juniper guys. Below you will find a Photo of Utah Juniper and Rocky Mountain Juniper both with nice foliage that in my opinion rival Shimpaku. I know there is a lot of argument about Juniper issues especially about how the foliage is maintained and cultivated; the old trim verses pinching debate.

I have already heard it said that once these trees are put in pots they respond differently. WHY? It seems to me if the tree is capable of assuming a trait in the wild why would it not do the same thing in a pot? Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[sorce]

Wouldn't have anything to do with the pot particularly.....

But everything else that accompanies it.
Elevation....water....fert....human...

IMO. Sounds dumb as hell!

Sorce

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I would guess putting it in a pot would cause them to revert to juvenile foliage as root operations and top reductions cause in many juniper species/variaties. I think one msjor aspect that makes Shimpaku so desirable is that is almost never reverts to juvenile foliage. But hey, I am no expert. My Shimpaku is a little better than limping along and the locally available native juniper is virginiana which does not have the lovely foliage that you have linked to.
I do love going after native species that many would overlook, so I say take some cuttings and/or seeds and try to find out how the foliage manages in a domesticated environment. I've do have space in my yard and some empty pots and am willing to cultivate the ugliest sticks in pots for the sake of experimentation.. I would need some material however.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It makes very much sense to me that there's a change in foliage.
Let's add up different factors from wild to pots:
- root spread and size
- root depth
- water availability and evaporation rates
- pests, and also beneficial bugs
- the entire microbiome of a plant changes after potting
- nutrient availability and composition (all of our nutrient mixtures contain a load more phosphorus than naturally available)
- change in environment (some juniper branches revert when they're shaded, to escape the high humidity shade and to get more light; sectored growth explains why not the entire plant responds that way).

Juvenile foliage is extending faster, less protected and generally better at photosynthesis; more open area for light to penetrate, more ventilation. It seems to be very much auxin driven growth, and basically, it has all the characteristics. An auxin inhibitor (like cytokin) could possibly stop the revert from happening.
Apart from that, what do we do with collected junipers or junipers that have had some work done?
We keep them in the shade, where auxins aren't broken down as fast as in the blazing sun and where healthy branches will want to extend towards the light. Especially if they're used to being in an open field.

There are many things contributing, but they all come down to the same.

That's just theory and observation though. Not experience.

 

[Vance Wood]

It makes very much sense to me that there's a change in foliage.
Let's add up different factors from wild to pots:
- root spread and size
- root depth
- water availability and evaporation rates
- pests, and also beneficial bugs
- the entire microbiome of a plant changes after potting
- nutrient availability and composition (all of our nutrient mixtures contain a load more phosphorus than naturally available)
- change in environment (some juniper branches revert when they're shaded, to escape the high humidity shade and to get more light; sectored growth explains why not the entire plant responds that way).

Juvenile foliage is extending faster, less protected and generally better at photosynthesis; more open area for light to penetrate, more ventilation. It seems to be very much auxin driven growth, and basically, it has all the characteristics. An auxin inhibitor (like cytokin) could possibly stop the revert from happening.
Apart from that, what do we do with collected junipers or junipers that have had some work done?
We keep them in the shade, where auxins aren't broken down as fast as in the blazing sun and where healthy branches will want to extend towards the light. Especially if they're used to being in an open field.

There are many things contributing, but they all come down to the same.

That's just theory and observation though. Not experience.

No where did I say these trees were producing juvenile foliage, and no where has the biggie possibility been mentioned.

wires-guy wrote: There are many things contributing, but they all come down to the same. The same thing??? what would that be???? I'm just trying to get you guys to think.

 

[augustine]

Hey Vance,

Your first photo shows exceptional foliage but as you know there is much variation within the species. I've seen good ones as bonsai but they were raised/styled by experienced folks that did the right thing at the right time at the right pace. There may be a bit of a trade off between the perfect foliage of a nice shimpaku and the rough character of a collected juniper. (Maybe not in all cases though?) Thanks for the nice pictures.

 

[TN_Jim]

Harsh wind and temperature extremes etc. in natural settings = adaptations to harshness

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I was responding to the comment directly above mine, about juvenile foliage.

For all the other questions, look up Epigenetics. Traits are expressed based on environmental cues. You're asking why plants change traits based on environment?

Or do you just want me to think about it?

Do you want me to try explain why you heard people say it responds differently?

I might not get your questions Vance.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I thought I was on track by noting that junipers, in general are more prone to juvenile foliage when in a pot due to trimming of the foliage and roots. I suppose that is a difference of life in a pot.. no-one is there to pinch, prune or wire when the tree is in the wild.

 

[TN_Jim]

I thought I was on track by noting that junipers, in general are more prone to juvenile foliage when in a pot due to trimming of the foliage and roots. I suppose that is a difference of life in a pot.. no-one is there to pinch, prune or wire when the tree is in the wild.

Pushing juvenile foliage can be a response to herbivory in the wild ...sharp needles not so appetizing.

 

[Vance Wood]

Not one person has come up with the one point I think is crucial, and that is troubling.

 

[Vance Wood]

Wouldn't have anything to do with the pot particularly.....

But everything else that accompanies it.
Elevation....water....fert....human...

IMO. Sounds dumb as hell!

Sorce

Your approach in my opinion is headed down the correct road.

 

[LanceMac10]

What? That your actually pruning the tree as opposed to what ever nature decides to "prune"?

 

[AZbonsai]

Read an article that said trees planted in pots have a different surface-area to volume ratio.
"This means their surface-area-to-volume ratio is far greater, which causes them to heat up and cool down far quicker than the ground."

My suspicion is this may have an impact on foliage development in order to negate the effects of how the plant compensates for heating and cooling.
Just a guess!?

 

[TN_Jim]

I would guess putting it in a pot would cause them to revert to juvenile foliage as root operations and top reductions cause in many juniper species/variaties. I think one msjor aspect that makes Shimpaku so desirable is that is almost never reverts to juvenile foliage. But hey, I am no expert. My Shimpaku is a little better than limping along and the locally available native juniper is virginiana which does not have the lovely foliage that you have linked to.
I do love going after native species that many would overlook, so I say take some cuttings and/or seeds and try to find out how the foliage manages in a domesticated environment. I've do have space in my yard and some empty pots and am willing to cultivate the ugliest sticks in pots for the sake of experimentation.. I would need some material however.

Don't mean to go on -off track...but ERC in the mountains, both plateaus, and central basin of TN, often have very dense/compact pad-like mature foliage (mirroring the 'quality' of Vances images above) without any sign of juvenile foliage, even if you cut a clump off....these typically are older established trees....

It is possible to have mature ERC foliage in a pot (presently have) even is perhaps a terrible beast of a species to wrangle.....the problem with the species does not seem to be the tree, rather how I treat it and how long willing to wait..and try to learn it

 

[Vance Wood]

Thius is the direction you should be looking at. If you/we don't do this we run the risk of being shadows of other people and their methods. TN-Jim wrote: It is possible to have mature ERC foliage in a pot (presently have) even is perhaps a terrible beast of a species to wrangle.....the problem with the species does not seem to be the tree, rather how I treat it and how long willing to wait..and try to learn it

 

[JRDillWFM]

I just found this thread and it's a great read for a juni lover. I will say, I was listening to Bjorn Bjorholm's podcast and he talks in one episode about how he doesn't like the RMJ foliage and prefers to graft Shimpaku. I'll have to find the episode and let you know. It was an interesting listen. I think he was answering a question about how that is different than grafting onto dead wood to make a new tree.

 

[chicago1980]

Here is a question to you Juniper guys. Below you will find a Photo of Utah Juniper and Rocky Mountain Juniper both with nice foliage that in my opinion rival Shimpaku. I know there is a lot of argument about Juniper issues especially about how the foliage is maintained and cultivated; the old trim verses pinching debate.

I have already heard it said that once these trees are put in pots they respond differently. WHY? It seems to me if the tree is capable of assuming a trait in the wild why would it not do the same thing in a pot? Does this make sense to anyone?

View attachment 200415View attachment 200415View attachment 200416View attachment 200430View attachment 200417

What do you mean by "differently"?

I am not necessarily understanding the proposed question, as it is a bit broad.

 

[Vance Wood]

I mean by differently---- the evidence that Native Junipers planted in pots do not produce the same kind of foliage they produce in the wild. My question is this: Is this because in fact our soil in a pot does not allow for this kind of growth? If that is so why do we not change our soil to make our trees produce the kind of foliage we desire if indeed the soil is the problem. OR--- and here is the biggie----Do you think it is possible that the way we treat the new growth on our native Junipers is the problem and the method we have been hawking so aggressively of late is the real problem that we are unwilling to abandon, having invested so much time and effort trying to sell the clip only method??? I have seen on this site and a couple of others the histories of native Junipers where at one point the foliage is nice and tight, before the owners are convinced to change to this new clip only method and the tree instantly declines artistically. Where the growth and pads were once nice and tight and are now open, lose and uninteresting.

 

[Adair M]

Vance, I have only recently (in the past 6 years) had the opportunity to learn much about our native junipers. I’ll share some of my discoveries.

All of the Sierra Junipers I have seen in pots have blue foliage. So naturally, I assumed they had blue foliage. Until... I went into the Sierra mountains, to view the view the wild trees growing at 10,000 feet, where they are native. Guess what? They’re green! If I hadn’t been with people who could positively have told me they were the same species as in the bonsai garden, I would never have believed they were the same!

So, why are Sierra Junipers green when growing wild in the mountains, and blue in the gardens?

I don’t know. Some factors that may come into play: elevation, water quality, humidity, frequency of water, soil pH, water pH, different UV exposure between mountain environment and the lower elevations, fertization, soil composition, soil temperature, daytime temperatures, nighttime temperatures, difference between day and night temperatures, length of cold and/or hot seasons...

I’m sure there’s more factors that may play a part in just the color!

Not to mention the growth habits are a bit different before and after collection, too! A tree that has tight foliage up on the mountain might change to loose and straggly once collected. It may be totally free of fungus on the mountain but very easily infected in our garden.

So...

I have come to the conclusion that while it may seem that we are “ruining” mother nature’s creation by changing the foliage from native to something we like better, like Kishu, it’s actually the best thing we can do. We have taken the tree out of its native environment, where it thrives, to an environment where it struggles to be healthy. It’s better for the tree (at least for the trunk!) to graft on foliage that thrives in its new environment, and actually looks like it’s native foliage in its native environment.

So, for instance, a California juniper would die in a couple years if left with California foliage inmy climate in Georgia. It’s very humid and rainy here. California juniper lives in a very hot, dry climate in California. They seldom live more than 3 years here. With grafted on Kishu foliage, they do far better! And with grafted kishu roots, well, they do just as well as a 100% Kishu tree.

I know some believe that changing the foliage is a sacrilege. That we are defiling the tree. I view it differently. That since we have removed the tree from the environment it has evolved to live in, changing the foliage is giving the tree a life support system so it can adapt to its new environment.