Nebari development in Siam

[Anonymous User]

OK, lets put the root cultivation to the side because it is obvious to me you have no idea how it is done.

I already explained how it is done. in fact I posted two techniques that are commonly used to create such nebari. If you wish to dispute what I have posted, please do so, but don't ignore the facts presented.

You seem once again determined to incite an argument, continuation of this practice will only lead to you being put back on my ignore list. I hope this isn't the case and that an intelligent discussion can be had here.

But lets understand one thing and the point I was driving at. It is a purposeful event. Someone has experimented and come up with a technique to saturate the surface of the soil with roots. Now the next question is does it look authenic? Does it look real and believable? Does a juniper wired up in knots look real?

Do they look real? I believe your choice of words confuses the issue, how can they not look real, they are real, we are not talking about painting or drawing subjects where such a discussion as to if they look real could be relevant. Instead we are using actual real subject matter, of course they are real.

I believe you are attempting to ask if they look natural, as in if such images are represented in nature. If this is the case, it doesn't matter if they are represented in nature or not, artistically speaking. All that matters is if the resulting image is visually pleasing.

Artistically, many bonsai artists are chained to a natural image of an ancient tree growing in nature and creations are all too often judged on if they appear natural. Some artists are breaking these chains and experimenting with different forms, some tree-like with exaggerated features, such as sumos,super-nebari trees, and massive deadwood, others with abstract forms that are very un-tree-like. Some are using materials, pots, and items that are surreal and very untraditional, think Nick Lenz here.

Painters and sculptors in the past imitated nature, soon impressionist, cubists, and others broke from duplicating or recording life and started expressing it instead. Bonsai is sure to follow this path.

So, back to your comment, it doesn't matter if they look natural, what matters is if they succeed visually and.....like I said, I think that these super-nebari trees can reach a point to where the nebari visually overpowers the image presented and thus, fails.

They all have one thing in common. They all have been modified for a purpose and to answer to a challenge.

While this may be true, it does not by any means assure success, which is the point of my comments on this thread.



Will

 

[Walter Pall]

Since bonsai is an art form it continues to change. There is always someone who tries out some new thing. Often is turns out to be crap but sometimes it is a successful innovation. Then someone else sees that this is successful and copies it and is also successful. A very smart artist finds out what makes the success and exaggerates it to create even more effect. Then he is even more successful. And then someone else does even more of this and there it should stop. But it does not stop. There is someone who feels that he must exaggerate even further to be even more successful. And then the point of no return is reached. The whole thing becomes grotesque. But the audience does NOT see that right away. Why? Because they got used to it over a certain time and found things to get better and better. The newer one was the better one. And they don't realize that after the point of no return the newer one got worse. But there is this strange feeling. Something seems to be wrong. And then someone shouts 'the emperor has no clothes'. Because he is smart he does not say this he says 'should not at one point be considered that the clothes of the emperor are non existent?' Annd then they jump all over the messenger, especially if his first name is Will. And only after a while it becomes common attitude that too much of a good thing is too much.

A few things in bonsai immediately come to my mind:

Fat trunks becoming fatter and shorter all the time. Sumo trees until they are just too fat.
Very nicely done abstract crowns are done even more nicely until they look like made of plastic.
Deadwoods is added for the trees to become more interesting. At one point there is just too much deadwood with too much interest and it becomes vulgar.
White paint is applied to deadwood, live vains of junipers are becoming red, the green is sprayed to become even more green and the whole thing look like a Barbie doll.
There are more of these.

Anyway, the super nebaris are beyond the point of no return for my personal taste. Even with a big crown they will appear just overdone. But I am well aware that it is too early to cry out 'the emperor has no clothes'. The public in general thinks this is getting better while in my eyes it is not.

 

[king kong]

I already explained how it is done. in fact I posted two techniques that are commonly used to create such nebari. If you wish to dispute what I have posted, please do so, but don't ignore the facts presented.
....................................
So you think you got it right? What you have presented are facts now? In who's mind?

You seem once again determined to incite an argument, continuation of this practice will only lead to you being put back on my ignore list. I hope this isn't the case and that an intelligent discussion can be had here.
....................................
Go back in the closet at your wish sir.

Do they look real? I believe your choice of words confuses the issue, how can they not look real, they are real, we are not talking about painting or drawing subjects where such a discussion as to if they look real could be relevant. Instead we are using actual real subject matter, of course they are real.
..............................................
You know, look real like a tree. Not that hard to understand is it?
I believe you are attempting to ask if they look natural, as in if such images are represented in nature. If this is the case, it doesn't matter if they are represented in nature or not, artistically speaking. All that matters is if the resulting image is visually pleasing.

Artistically, many bonsai artists are chained to a natural image of an ancient tree growing in nature and creations are all too often judged on if they appear natural. Some artists are breaking these chains and experimenting with different forms, some tree-like with exaggerated features, such as sumos,super-nebari trees, and massive deadwood, others with abstract forms that are very un-tree-like. Some are using materials, pots, and items that are surreal and very untraditional, think Nick Lenz here.

Painters and sculptors in the past imitated nature, soon impressionist, cubists, and others broke from duplicating or recording life and started expressing it instead. Bonsai is sure to follow this path.
........................................
I have no idea what you are talking about about nor do you!

So, back to your comment, it doesn't matter if they look natural, what matters is if they succeed visually and.....like I said, I think that these super-nebari trees can reach a point to where the nebari visually overpowers the image presented and thus, fails.




While this may be true, it does not by any means assure success, which is the point of my comments on this thread.



Will

.................................

Does this succeed visually and why?

 

[king kong]

Since bonsai is an art form it continues to change. There is always someone who tries out some new thing. Often is turns out to be crap but sometimes it is a successful innovation. Then someone else sees that this is successful and copies it and is also successful. A very smart artist finds out what makes the success and exaggerates it to create even more effect. Then he is even more successful. And then someone else does even more of this and there it should stop. But it does not stop. There is someone who feels that he must exaggerate even further to be even more successful. And then the point of no return is reached. The whole thing becomes grotesque. But the audience does NOT see that right away. Why? Because they got used to it over a certain time and found things to get better and better. The newer one was the better one. And they don't realize that after the point of no return the newer one got worse. But there is this strange feeling. Something seems to be wrong. And then someone shouts 'the emperor has no clothes'. Because he is smart he does not say this he says 'should not at one point be considered that the clothes of the emperor are non existent?' Annd then they jump all over the messenger, especially if his first name is Will. And only after a while it becomes common attitude that too much of a good thing is too much.

A few things in bonsai immediately come to my mind:

Fat trunks becoming fatter and shorter all the time. Sumo trees until they are just too fat.
Very nicely done abstract crowns are done even more nicely until they look like made of plastic.
Deadwoods is added for the trees to become more interesting. At one point there is just too much deadwood with too much interest and it becomes vulgar.
White paint is applied to deadwood, live vains of junipers are becoming red, the green is sprayed to become even more green and the whole thing look like a Barbie doll.
There are more of these.

Anyway, the super nebaris are beyond the point of no return for my personal taste. Even with a big crown they will appear just overdone. But I am well aware that it is too early to cry out 'the emperor has no clothes'. The public in general thinks this is getting better while in my eyes it is not.

You are missing the big picture here Walter. You are turning a cold shoulder to innovation. Yes the West does some things that are tacky and not to our tastes but the techniques used in plant propagation, plant breeding, meristem reproduction are miles ahead of our technology. So if I see something like a ficus with an enormous root system, my first thought is how in heaven's name do they do this? Yes it is a bit over the top but that is to be expected. But I can modify their approach to fit my tastes which is a good thing. The point is these people are constantly making strides in the plant business and deserve attention. Don't knock it before you even understand what they are doing which is very evident here in this discussion.

 

[Walter Pall]

You are missing the big picture here Walter.

As usually you are totally missing the point of this discussion KK.

 

[king kong]

As usually you are totally missing the point of this discussion KK.

So you want to sit back and throw stones at something you don't completely understand? I have made a great contact with someone who does completely understand after seeing one of these trees and it has been a real eye opener for me. The information was very valuable for ficus development. I have never seen anything close to it here in the States. The big picture is the important point Walter.

 

[Anonymous User]

Yes it is a bit over the top....

Thank you for finally answering the question posed long ago, we seem to be in agreement on this point.





Will

 

[king kong]

Well no kidding, so now your happy even if someone bet you a million dollars if you could reproduce that ficus, you wouldn't have the first idea where to start. Understand the complete story before you pass judgement is my golden rule.

 

[Anonymous User]

Well no kidding, so now your happy even if someone bet you a million dollars if you could reproduce that ficus, you wouldn't have the first idea where to start. Understand the complete story before you pass judgement is my golden rule.

Once again, how such nebari is created is unimportant and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The discussion was that there is a point where such super-nebari becomes counterproductive and actually distracts from the image presented. Who cares how it was created if the creation fails visually?

So far, all have agreed there is such a thing as too far, too much, including yourself. You can show us that magic little elves come out of your arse and sing chants over roots to create this nebari and guess what? There is still a point where such nebari becomes distractive.

I don't need to understand the anatomical details of how a cows stomach works to tell you the crap that comes out of it stinks. Dive in and dissect it, understand it, taste it, roll in it all you want, but the end result still stinks. I don't even need to understand how a nose works or how smells are interrupted by the brain to tell you crap stinks. It just stinks.

We do not have to understand the complete story in order to pass judgment at all, we just need to see the end result, the path taken is unimportant. No matter how magnificent the technique is that creates these roots, if it is taken to far the image still fails.

That being said, I already explained how such nebari are created in this very thread, if you wish to dispute it with your newly found source of information, by all means, please do, educate us. You have repeatedly spit out how ignorant we are of the technique, but you have failed to add to or challenge what has been said.



Will

 

[king kong]

I would rather not share any information with the likes of you Mr. Heath. But I have the back up. Just wanted to see if you knew anything on the subject for once. No suprise. And for the record I have no prblem with this particular ficus root development. I would be proud to have grown it and show it.

 

[king kong]

Yea Walter, I don't understand sometimes what the bonsai World is turning into. Sometimes it is just so appalling I just have to close my eyes.

 

[Anonymous User]

I would rather not share any information with the likes of you Mr. Heath. But I have the back up. Just wanted to see if you knew anything on the subject for once. No suprise.

And again, instead of staying on the subject, you try and incite, offering nothing at all to the discussion. Sorry, Mr. Kong, you're back on ignore, having shown once again that you either do not have or refuse to offer anything of value.


Will

 

[TheSteve]

Nah, as long as we can keep on subject, this discussion can stay on course and maybe offer some good food for thought.

Speaking of which, what is your take on the subject?



Will

As long as it stays in proportion to the tree it is fine. In my opinion the WHOLE composition has to work or it loses. Wether it be the pot, nebari, deadwood, trunk, leaf size whatever it all has to be in harmony. a well done sumo is quite attractive but a huge trunk with crappy branching is still crappy.
Basically no one thing should draw the eye allowing the entire composition to be viewed.

 

[king kong]

What a shame, I had picture of one of those "hollow" trunks to show you. lol's

 

[Dav4]

KK, better get some sealant on that wound ASAP. Dr. Shigo is watching...

 

[king kong]

You know there are times I glance into the mighty sky above with my cut paste in hand, working it in carefully into wounds and I glance above to see if the good Doc is there ready to smack me on the head with a stick. At least he doesn't have a 'halo' around his head. lol's

 

[Vance Wood]

Getting back on track to the issue of extreme Nebari and other features and whether they are over-done or not. IMHO it all depends on the eye of the beholder. Some people, rightly or wrongly so, would view the Nebari from Siam (Viet Nam) as being extreme and grotesque. Others would view them as remarkable and beautiful. So really it becomes a subjective decision as to which it really is depending on who makes the judgement and, in the case of the Bonsai Community, the credibility of the critic. Features like this are important in how they are accomplished and to whether those techniques can be duplicated across many species and to what success.

Those trees pictured appear to be a Ficus species and as such lend themselves very well to this process, they grow this way naturally and in the wild this feature is not unique. In fact I have seen photos of these trees producing this kind of root mass encasing ancient ruins in roots. Making a Pine do this is another issue, not only of accomplishment but of credibility and the impact of the visual element taken to the extreme. Would this be acceptable or viewed as a novelty?

It is possible you could grow a Pine into a broom style but would this be acceptable or a novelty. I know there is a species of Pine you see in photos along the Roman Appian Way that grow like this, a broom style pine. However, this is not typical for a pine, or used much in bonsai understanding that most people do not view Pines as growing this way.

Personally I look at the Nebari Issue as being a bit extreme in this case, making bonsai that are demonstrations of technique more than expressions of art---the old art versus craft argument. I find this conundrum in music. I play renaissance Lute music on an historically accurate Lute, some of you know this. However; I do not particularly find Baroque Lute music as interesting because of the art of ornamentation, which is taken to such an extreme in the Baroque era that it seems the music is more about how many ornaments you can squeeze into a composition than the actual musical quality of the composition. Even when beautifully performed, after a while the music becomes boring and redundant. But of course this is just my opinion as too is my take on the Nebari issue.

 

[Anonymous User]

As long as it stays in proportion to the tree it is fine. In my opinion the WHOLE composition has to work or it loses. Wether it be the pot, nebari, deadwood, trunk, leaf size whatever it all has to be in harmony. a well done sumo is quite attractive but a huge trunk with crappy branching is still crappy.
Basically no one thing should draw the eye allowing the entire composition to be viewed.

Excellent remarks!


Will

 

[king kong]

"If you are looking for faults, just remember, no one tree is perfect and if you look hard enough there are always faults"

Warning, disturbing pictures of hyper-nebari below. Enjoy!

 

[king kong]

Getting back on track to the issue of extreme Nebari and other features and whether they are over-done or not. IMHO it all depends on the eye of the beholder. Some people, rightly or wrongly so, would view the Nebari from Siam (Viet Nam) as being extreme and grotesque.

Isn't Siam that country that was renamed Thailand "Land of the free" in 1939?