Nebari from hell

[Japonicus]

I have few targeted root correctional plans for this EWP
just wanted to share a couple pics after I got in there and dislodged a few deep rooted
weeds before Winter, excavate some moss and pull the old needles.

The roots have bark on them, has moss has lichen on top of that.
The lack of husbandry on this dwarf on its own roots shows.
There's a couple of loops in the soil that will be removed that look stupid.
Other than that, I'm keeping the nebari as is for the most part.

Today I'm cleaning up a couple jins and cutting back a little

 

[parhamr]

Those are… ugly roots

You have a good plan, clearly know what you’re doing, and this looks like one of those fun cases where embracing the ugly will work. Give em hell

 

[Japonicus]

I guess if I'm going to work with ugly roots, they may as well be on EWP
since the species carries such a complex of not being a good subject for bonsai.

Had a bum time of wiring it today. Tree needs water so I wired some after a little cutting back.
Removed the guy wire on bottom left branch and broke it in 3 places while positioning it with wire
so I had to quit moving it around even though it is not set in place good.

The bar branch is terrible but creates too much negative space to remove either...I think.
Only the right one could be removed legitimately, but there's a bare bend on the left
that could use a grafted branch...

I have needles that are 5" long and some less than an inch, and I haven't a clue why so sporadic.
Perhaps it's my "sporadic" approach. It's nice to have around though to play with.
Is the last of 2 of these I had. The other was in ground for no less than 10 years and was the one
that had the best branching, but I let it get out of hand and very out of proportion in the top
to the point it was unsalvageable then I killed it by too many insults in one year trying to salvage it.
Trunk was 3x width of this one with the terrible roots above.

 

[Japonicus]

Before and after


I removed a branch on the right in the apex and twisted the apex clockwise
and lowered an upper branch to feed the negative space.
After breaking the bottom left branch 3 different times I quit on it.
Would really look better if I could bring the bottom left branch down some more.
Will have to guy wire it again in the future. Silly roots are earning their board and keep
with the guy wires

 

[Potawatomi13]

Before and after
View attachment 268593 View attachment 268594

I removed a branch on the right in the apex and twisted the apex clockwise
and lowered an upper branch to feed the negative space.
After breaking the bottom left branch 3 different times I quit on it.
Would really look better if I could bring the bottom left branch down some more.
Will have to guy wire it again in the future. Silly roots are earning their board and keep
with the guy wires

Possible partial solution to offer: Change angle of tree lowering loop root and at same time lower whole tree into substrate until loop meets soil. At same time bottom left branch gets lowered somewhat. Also at same time different apex/style idea may present self to you.

 

[Japonicus]

Possible partial solution to offer: Change angle of tree lowering loop root and at same time lower whole tree into substrate until loop meets soil. At same time bottom left branch gets lowered somewhat. Also at same time different apex/style idea may present self to you.

But that means you’re wanting to fix my whiskey bent and hell bound nebari

 

[Potawatomi13]

But that means you’re wanting to fix my whiskey bent and hell bound nebari

Chick a boom, Chick a boom don't ya just love it?

 

[Japonicus]

Chick a boom, Chick a boom don't ya just love it?

One of my buddies growing up used to play that on his portable 45 rpm player
and I would get so giddy. Those were the days...

 

[PABonsai]

Could you pot deeper and over several years slowly remove each of those gnarly roots? Or remove the bar branch and ground layer above those roots?

 

[Japonicus]

Could you pot deeper and over several years slowly remove each of those gnarly roots? Or remove the bar branch and ground layer above those roots?

I've never layered or grafted anything pine.
I killed this ones sister last year overworking it, so layering it won't happen at my hands.
As for the bar branch, yeh I hate it. Until I can graft one of the scions from THAT branch
to take up the negative space on the current upper left side bare curve, it will remain, and even though WP, will gin once graft takes.
Gins can be temporary, as can bar branches. I've removed all the whorls on these years ago.




This was 2/14/2009, and when I planted the one in the ground.
The second one I think is this tree, no bark yet then.
They neither one gained hardly any height despite one in ground for 10 years.

Plan right now is to repot in Spring, try a graft then too, and grow out the back budding, and try to learn
(I have my doubts) what makes it back bud the way it has, though semi-random (one branch may back bud
at the same distance from the trunk or branch tips not randomly but another branch did not back bud).
I think it has to do with any Fall pruning. I've always pinched Spring candles.
It really changed my game up on my JWP this year (not in a good way) by NOT Spring pinching.

Here's my take on this nebari from hell. I don't hate it all. I really like the one root with the shari on it.
It is properly placed enough for me. If I plant it deeper, the trunk will look a lot more thin and I will lose
...some good...nebari, that would require root therapy perhaps, which is nothing I'm willing to invest my time
in with this particular tree. I'll give you this though, tilting the planting angle to the left will by all means
be checked out when I repot into a mica pot next Spring. The left lower branch may really pout hard on me
after breaking it, so lets wait and see where it's taking me when I pot it up. I could even look for a bluestone rock
or similar to wedge in the left fruit loop for it to continue to grow around
Thanks for the ideas @PABonsai all good!

 

[Japonicus]

If I shorten this EWP, and the needles remain many at 5" long
it would work against the tree to shorten it, BECAUSE...it is a dwarf.
Nearly ZERO height gain in 10 years time in the ground unchecked on the sister tree.
The longer the needles, the taller the trunk needs to be within reason of course.

I mean I'd love to make the right bar branch the apex, but the computations don't add up.

 

[PABonsai]

I don't know if it helps because I'm not good at these but I was thinking put top of soil at the orange and maybe cut one root per year at the red lines. I think you'd have some nice taper into the soil and it would help new feeders grow close to the trunk.

And when I meant ground layer I was thinking strip the bark and maybe plant 1/2" above the orange line and use that as your new nebari.

Just ideas. I don't know if they're good so I'd love some other opinions on them. I'm new so I'm just shooting in the dark here. Just trying to be helpful!

 

[Japonicus]

I don't know if it helps because I'm not good at these

I only have one of these left.

but I was thinking put top of soil at the orange and maybe cut one root per year at the red lines. I think you'd have some nice taper into the soil and it would help new feeders grow close to the trunk.

There's no taper there. Growing it in this pot since 2009 has kept trunk growth, minimal at best.

And when I meant ground layer I was thinking strip the bark and maybe plant 1/2" above the orange line and use that as your new nebari.

I only have one of these left

Just ideas. I don't know if they're good so I'd love some other opinions on them. I'm new so I'm just shooting in the dark here. Just trying to be helpful!

I wouldn't mind ideas from others as well, but do reread the 1st line of this thread
and the 1st 2 lines of my last reply to you in post #10.

WP in ground "style" too far gone ?

I'm not very good with pines at all, but they live. I lost my 1st pine, a BP to needle cast early this Summer and I get so confused on techniques that a workshop, no, many workshops, is the only way I'm ever going to learn techniques with confidence. There are no bonsai clubs/workshops near me...

www.bonsainut.com

I don't expect you to read each post in this thread depicting how I killed her sister tree
but had I stopped at post #18 the tree would be alive today. So I have few correctional plans for this current tree.
I like the one well placed root with the shari. Is that enough for me too look the other way with
the deformities born on this tree? If I can refine it at all and learn to control needle length...yes.
For me to legitimately undertake your plan, (in my mind) I would need to grow this out in the ground
and gain girth. It's a time thing actually, and being stuck on what pleasantries that are not well conveyed
through pictures of the current nebari. This is the picked over tree of the 2.
I hope I'm not coming across as rude or anything it helps to think it through with all good considerations.
When I say layering isn't going to happen at my hand, that is what I meant.

I will tilt it 45º to the left when I pot it up and look at it and see if maybe a tourniquet layer of the left fruit loop
is a possible fix. We'll wait and see where the tree takes me after breaking the lower left branch 3 times yesterday.

 

[PABonsai]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to be a pain. I was just trying to elaborate on the initial thought I had in my head just in case it didn't make sense at first. I'm not very good at treespeak, I wasn't trying to argue.

 

[Japonicus]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to be a pain. I was just trying to elaborate on the initial thought I had in my head just in case it didn't make sense at first. I'm not very good at treespeak, I wasn't trying to argue.

I know you weren’t. I will save such drastic measures for other stock and not buy such deformed nebari
in the future.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think you need to think more boldly with this tree. The trunk is arrow straight and as you have pointed out the branches aren't positioned well - nor do they have much character.

The bad nebari would actually be a striking complement to the tree, IF the rest of the tree was contorted and crunched up. Think about growing a new tree from the lowest branch on the right. If you did so, you would first need to wire that branch aggressively - bending it down and trying to contort it as much as possible.

You would not be able to reduce the tree all at once, of course. But you would remove a couple of the top branches and keep working down each year as the lower branches got stronger.

 

[Lazylightningny]

It seems to want a ground layer, but I don't know how these take to layering. I have a JWP that needs new roots also, but I'm very hesitant to try layering.

 

[Japonicus]

I think you need to think more boldly with this tree. The trunk is arrow straight and as you have pointed out the branches aren't positioned well - nor do they have much character.

The bad nebari would actually be a striking complement to the tree, IF the rest of the tree was contorted and crunched up. Think about growing a new tree from the lowest branch on the right. If you did so, you would first need to wire that branch aggressively - bending it down and trying to contort it as much as possible.

You would not be able to reduce the tree all at once, of course. But you would remove a couple of the top branches and keep working down each year as the lower branches got stronger.

Haha LOL@ the complimenting nebari vs the rest of the tree...

Your idea @Bonsai Nut is the only future plan that will ever be carried out with this tree
rather than the opposite, reducing from the ground up, though a layer wouldn't be much of a reduction
I'm afraid it is too risky and I won't do it.
This pic is how I began that reduction on the other one, and once this one rebounds, a similar reduction will ensue
but letting the tree rest and recuperate longer between insults than this one in the pic that died.
I may just put it in the ground come Spring rather than the planned repot where the other one resided
and at a bit of an angle to help with the new desired apex/branch. One less tree in a pot to water every day in Summer