Nebari work

Shay

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Hello all,
Attaching some photos of palmatum and trident nebari work done last weekend.
The palmatum is an air layer that was detached a year and a half ago and you can see the original trunk diameter as a white circle. it's amazing how quickly the base has expanded.
The roots on the trident are all from a year's growth!
Bothe are at the beginning of the road...

Cheers,
Shay
 

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music~maker

Shohin
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Hello all,
Attaching some photos of palmatum and trident nebari work done last weekend.
The palmatum is an air layer that was detached a year and a half ago and you can see the original trunk diameter as a white circle. it's amazing how quickly the base has expanded.
The roots on the trident are all from a year's growth!
Bothe are at the beginning of the road...

Cheers,
Shay

Why did you prune so much of the roots off of that acer? You're still doing trunk development, so it has to fill those roots back in to really make any progress. Not sure I see much advantage vs. just cleaning them up a bit and planting it so the roots radiate outwards and letting it run. Seems this way just adds some unnecessary risk to the project.
 

markyscott

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Great work on those maples! Thanks for sharing - it's very important and timely reminder about the importance of developing a balanced root system as we develop our maple bonsai. It's fundamental for developing the basal flare on the tree and this kind of work early will save you years of corrections to an unbalanced nebari, healing wounds from the removal of large roots and root grafting down the road.
 

M. Frary

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Holy cow that's a lot of roots on that trident!? I assume by the shape of it you had it in a colander? Impresive!
Roots grown in a colander look much different. They don't grow in circles. They grow out to the side then get pruned off by the air.
 

Shay

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Holy cow that's a lot of roots on that trident!? I assume by the shape of it you had it in a colander? Impresive!
the trident wasn't grown in a colander. @M. Frary is right.
I guess the reasons for such impressive growth, other than it being a trident, were well drained organic free substrate and heavy fertilizing.
Thanks,
Shay
 

Shay

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Why did you prune so much of the roots off of that acer? You're still doing trunk development, so it has to fill those roots back in to really make any progress. Not sure I see much advantage vs. just cleaning them up a bit and planting it so the roots radiate outwards and letting it run. Seems this way just adds some unnecessary risk to the project.
I think it's like branch development... you get rid of what you don't need early and build what you save from the grounds up.
It went through harder root work last year and filled up the colander in no time.
Any way it will be a small tree.
Shay
 

sorce

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It went through harder root work last year and filled up the colander in no time

It was in a colander a previous year?
It should be IMO...

I agree that growth is pretty impressive....
But not the kind of impressive valuable to end game.

As soon as those roots hit the wall, they just ran around and around, robbing all your root growing energy and hormones to keep running looking for a place to grow beneficial feeders.

In a colander, after the first few inches, most of that energy would have been converted into feeders, which, size alone says, gives you more bang for your energy buck.
Or bang at all....

Do you have any picture from last year?

Sorce
 

Shay

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It was in a colander a previous year?
It should be IMO...

I agree that growth is pretty impressive....
But not the kind of impressive valuable to end game.

As soon as those roots hit the wall, they just ran around and around, robbing all your root growing energy and hormones to keep running looking for a place to grow beneficial feeders.

In a colander, after the first few inches, most of that energy would have been converted into feeders, which, size alone says, gives you more bang for your energy buck.
Or bang at all....

Do you have any picture from last year?

Sorce
The trident didn't go through a rough root work last year. It was the Palmatum. I don't gave pictures of the first trident transplant but I can say it was the first I did to it and it was in a very very poor dirt before that.
The container of the trident was packed with fine feeder roots. The substrate made sure of that... I agree that a colander would do a better job.
 

sorce

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... I agree that a colander would do a better job.

Glad you didn't find that post mean!

I'm not completely sold on colanders doing a "better" job....

"Different"? Yes.

I want to keep the dialogue going on it...
We still have a lot to learn!

Thanks for Participating!

Sorce
 

M. Frary

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I'm not completely sold on colanders doing a "better" job....
As you've seen once the colander fills up with roots the tree slows down. Just like any other bucket or pot.
But until that time trees grow like gangbusters in them.
I have a couple collected trees that I'm going to put back in the ground this year after being in the colander. Now these trees have tons of fine feeder roots to establish themselves faster,hence growing larger faster.
 

sorce

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As you've seen once the colander fills up with roots the tree slows down. Just like any other bucket or pot.
But until that time trees grow like gangbusters in them.
I have a couple collected trees that I'm going to put back in the ground this year after being in the colander. Now these trees have tons of fine feeder roots to establish themselves faster,hence growing larger faster.

Yes I agree.

Seems the constant "backrooting" gives you way more options near the base too, as far as aesthetically pleasing forks to cut back to...

Not only that, but I have a sneaking suspicion....
That once they hit the edge...
The tree knows it and is more prone to send more new basal roots out..

As if it where near the edge of a cliff.
It knows it has to send more roots when that one's tip fails.

In how you are going back in the ground...

I want to pinpoint a schedule.
Using colanders, the ground, colanders in the ground, and regular pots...

Like...
Seed pulled and tap cut.
Colander 1-2 years for basal options/ initial set...
Ground. Still lifted every year. X years.
Colander for final feeder block 1-2 years..

Then you are in a Bonsai pot, cutting pie wedges out at repot just to refresh.

Or something like that.

Sorce
 

music~maker

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I think it's like branch development... you get rid of what you don't need early and build what you save from the grounds up.
It went through harder root work last year and filled up the colander in no time.
Any way it will be a small tree.
Shay

I mean, sure, I get what OP was going for here. I just think there's diminishing returns given that the cleaned up root ball was at a decent starting point for the season, given what needs to happen next for development.

I guess I have a bit of a different philosophy on that. I grow a lot of stuff from early stages, and I've been experimenting with much more gradual cut backs followed by decently long periods of growth. For example, I may target a branch that has to go, but I may not actually remove it for 2-3 seasons sometimes, depending on whether or not I think it can still have some positive effect on the overall system or the final trunk. But if it's already served it's purpose and is about to out-grow the design, then off it goes. You can always shorten branches to slow them down without having to remove them. The main thing it requires is patience.

This is, in my opinion, why we see so many people's trees that show very slow development over 5-10 year periods. They're over-worked. I've definitely tried both ways, and I find I get much better, much faster results by not taking things back to such bare bones so eagerly. Or at least, if I were to do something like the root work in this post, I wouldn't touch that tree's roots in any significant way for probably 4-5 years.

I'm a big proponent of @Walter Pall 's hedge pruning method, and have been experimenting with variations on that theme for years. In my opinion, the same thing applies to the roots. I tend to let a lot of my trees grow out in nursery pots first. Usually for several years running, the only root work I'll do each season is to lift the root ball out of the pot, gently comb out the perimeter, and trim it up, but still leave only an inch or two of space between the root ball and the pot. Nothing particularly drastic, but gradually cleaning things up, removing old soil, etc. Then I fill it back in with bonsai soil and wait another year. After a few years of this, you have a nice, dense root ball that can be cut WAY back to get it into a training pot.

In fact, I'm at that stage with a bunch of my trees now. I have some large flat training pots that are going to serve as intermediate steps between the nursery pots and bonsai pots. When I finally take the root ball down to fit in the training pot is when I start to do more substantial cut-backs on the roots. I find by treating my trees in this way, they're getting the chance to fully, functionally operate as a miniature tree, at the scale I'm holding them at. I do something similar on top, and I end up with nice, full canopies in fairly short periods of time.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat, and I appreciate that lots of different things work, so I'm not saying my way is definitely better, but I can tell you from my experience that OP's tree probably would have developed just fine without such drastic root pruning, and many of the roots trimmed off may have contributed to future nebari. As this tree thickens up, the roots that are left behind will thicken up, and some will undoubtedly become too big and need to be removed. As it stands now, there's nothing to cut back to that will take over. For that reason alone, the root's in the first pic would have been my last photo before potting it, not my first. =)
 

sorce

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For that reason alone, the root's in the first pic would have been my last photo before potting it, not my first. =)

I agree...

For me, as long as it's not ruining the flare and the first couple root divisions that will be exposed later to view....

Cutting it off only slows you down.

Sorce
 
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