Need help, my BC's condition has changed from great to brown-tips this past week, cannot figure out what's wrong :(

[SU2]

I collected this as an 18" stump in late Jan/early Feb this year while dormant, it quickly bushed-out, I removed a lot of redundant branches (to what's left right now), but besides wiring I haven't touched it (no pruning just growing!) Some months ago the growth slowed and, with its foliage-mass, I figured it needed to spread more roots so I put a 2nd oil-pan under it (~4" extra substrate) and it had another 'growth spurt' (the primary top-leader branch is about twice as tall as the stump now )

It'd slowed again, maybe ~3wks ago, anyways I didn't pay much mind but about a week ago I started to find some dead-tips of leaflets (with them occurring almost exclusively on the newest growth), but it wasn't too-bad so just put it on rainwater-only watering (no fert besides some older osmocote), thinking maybe fert-burn - though this was suspicious because this BC sits next to another, larger BC on the same bench, both get the exact same treatment (though the larger one gets a little more wind), yet I was getting these little dead-tips on leaflets throughout the tree:
[And, 2 or 3 branch-areas got a different effect, instead of the tips it's the entirety of the end of the shoot, just changing to a real dull-green:


I kept an eye on it and it got progressively worse, so I re-potted / slip-potted it (couldn't risk trying to cut-off the first oil-pan, its escaped-roots fully colonized the bottom tray) by just filling a 5gal container ~85% with substrate, removing the bottom oil-pan and quickly placing that into the waiting 5-gal (did it at sunset and watered thoroughly before/after to reduce any chances of shocking it) I know it's only been a couple days but the increased burnt-tips are just continuing to occur more and more (same pace since the re-pot), can anyone give me any idea what this could be? It'd started predominately on the growing-tips of mid-trunk shoots, but then spread to the growing-tips of of the top shoots up to the tip of its current 'vertical leader'/primary, it's like a slow die-back is underway :/ The only thing I can think of is it was root-bound to the point it knew it had to slow growth down, but even still I wouldn't expect the growing tips to go brown, just growth to slow (though this is my first coniferous species..), am hoping the 5gal would let it spread roots and regain vigor, maybe a few more days and it will, am keeping it on rainwater 2-3x/day til then (my normal watering for it, have it in a low-drain, high-WHC setup instead of going full submersion!!)


Any guesses what's caused this? If so, remedies? Have a gut-feeling that it just hit a point, growing vigorously, where the roots couldn't keep-up and the supplest foliage is now dying-back (it'd been maybe 2 or 2.5wks that the growth had slowed, though at the same time the growth slowed a lot on the larger one and that has none of these spots :/ )

Pic from today, all of my (never pruned) growing-tips are like this, all branches: , Despite its "brother BC" showing no issue:

[ I did move it (with its new 5gal container/slip-potting) to a lower-sun area (no direct sun after 2-2.30p) ]

Pic of the 'faded green' shoots' dull, grayish/brownish hue (this tree's growth gets practically neon-green, pale-growth worries the heck out of me!



Thanks a ton for any help on this one!! Have only got two good / vigorous BC's, really would hate to lose this guy, have grown real partial to BC's!!

[If you're able to offer any extra advice I'd love to hear from some of the resident BC-specialists like @BillsBayou , @Zach Smith @Mellow Mullet - this has gotta be indicative of something specific right? It's well-watered, my FL climate has been humid with moderate rain and most days have been partial-sun, the BC has been in the same spot (next to my other BC that's still looking great!) for a while, nothing I can think of except the apparent growth-slowness a few weeks ago...]

Again thanks, am really in love with this specimen and was so happy with how vigorous and healthy it was(/is/seemed/whatever!)

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Summer heat, mine start getting ratty in the late summer, the ones in the landscape do too. Or, rust mites, an infestation will make the tree look like it is rusting, hence their name

 

[BillsBayou]

STOP FIDDLING WITH THE TREE!!!!

I'm glad I didn't read this after my morning coffee. The caffeine and stress would have caused my head to defoliate.

Are we talking about the tree on the right or the left? From the follow-up photo, it looks like the tree on the right. If so, that tree is fine, but you may be pushing it too hard.

The tree's vascular system was built for a much larger tree. After the dig, the tree's internal systems were dedicated to getting back the solar panels that had been lost. All the energy it had went into making new branches with new leaves. The tree needs to regain it's ability to feed itself. This is why January/February is so good for collecting.

When you removed the "redundant branches", the tree's efforts at recovery were being limited. Bald cypress are very good at rerouting vascular flow. They are also good at only utilizing the vascular systems that are being rewarded. I'm curious what type of die-back you'll see beneath the bark.

The balance between foliage and roots has also been affected by the dig, push for growth, and diminished rewards for growth. If you keep asking the roots to do more and more with no extra reward, the tree's roots will begin to fail.

Repotting twice in the first year? Yeah.... no. Stop that. Sadly, the 5-gallon pot is all wrong for a bald cypress of that size. You need something larger (but leave it alone for now!). What's going to happen is the tree will grow surface roots out to the edge of the pot and turn (left/right/down). BC surface roots can get rather thick, and being so close to the trunk, the turned root will be very noticeable. Also, the deep pot encourages the tree to grow deep fat roots. That'll be difficult to correct when you want to train it for a bonsai pot.

Overall, the tree looks healthy, fern burn or not. Keep it watered and keep it fed. I think it's over stressed.

 

[Zach Smith]

What Bill said. It's normal to see stressed foliage on BC in August, especially the first year out of the ground. But you don't repot in that first year.

 

[SU2]

Summer heat, mine start getting ratty in the late summer, the ones in the landscape do too. Or, rust mites, an infestation will make the tree look like it is rusting, hence their name

SOOO glad to hear this, I had seen some getting ratty in the landscape *but* I've seen ratty ones through the summer so didn't realize it was as widespread (and haven't looked close-up at an in-ground specimen for weeks now)

Re rust mites, I've yet to find any webbing and, of the damaged areas where the minority weren't "tip burn" but the whole leaf looking pale/brownish, I did that test where you "shake the mites off" onto paper and smear the paper to see if you squished any (looking for little red lines...heard it from ryan neil in some youtube!), have done that at least twice and never found anything (and have visually-inspected it for half an hour cumulatively, or more, since this started and never found any insects or especially-bad areas, the issue is general/homogeneous through the canopy- I was thinking "old leaflets" until it progressed to the leaflets on my top-most growing tip!)

Such a relief to hear this is normal, thing had been amazing me with its vigor and was real worried as I've only got 2 BC's and am in love w/ the species!!

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Rust mites are not mobile like spider mites, you can't shake them off. You need a good magnifying glass, a loupe, or microscope. Here are some pictures that I took with a microscope: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/attack-of-the-mites.27063/

 

[SU2]

STOP FIDDLING WITH THE TREE!!!!

I'm glad I didn't read this after my morning coffee. The caffeine and stress would have caused my head to defoliate.

I'm truly surprised at your reaction here Bill, I honestly thought I'd done things right on this....the two things you cite me for are things that I did because I saw everyone else doing the same:

1 - "Re-Potting" - I didn't re-pot once, I used an oil-pan the same as @Mellow Mullet and like him I rested my oil-pan into another- only my 2nd oil-pan had substrate instead of water, I didn't disturb the roots I merely allowed escaped-roots to colonize more substrate, I know the first time I rested it on more soil it didn't stress it (as it grew faster shortly after doing so) and just cannot imagine how letting the 2nd tub's escaped-roots colonize more substrate is a bad thing - won't I be cutting-off so much of that in spring regardless? I saw moving it onto the 5gal of substrate as akin to putting it on top of a tub of water, am just genuinely unsure if it's the root-disturbance you're condemning or the fact the roots will grow downward instead of sideways..

2 - "Removing sacrifice branches" - I let it become a bush and, realizing how large the scarring would be if I just let every one of the scores of branches grow-out, I looked-into the subject and couldn't find *anyone* who kept a full bush through their entire first year, and I did find pics from Adam's site and first year pics on @Zach Smith 's site that showed BC's with far less branches than mine (in July, on their first year), the description of "Sarah's Tree" that you linked me to (on CajunBonsai) also described removing the extra branches, I even made a thread here before doing it just to be sure!!

I'm just so surprised and upset with myself that I 'scored' such a low grade in your eyes, I thought I'd been doing a great job with them, hadn't pruned/defoliated anything (as you don't do that in the first year on a BC) but the idea of leaving every branch on it for the entire first year is simply not something I'd seen, it's something that seemed illogical once there was a strong root-mass, and I'd seen so many others who didn't keep bushes their entire first year.... I'm truly confused here man, just to be clear you'd leave every branch on? Including the spots where there's 7 branches coming from the same spot on the trunk? I was just under the (false apparently!) impression that I was supposed to let it bush-out so I could develop my root-mass, it was then that I started removing some of the especially-redundant branches (like when there were 7 from one spot on the trunk) and asked here & on reddit how to proceed and thought I'd done well til I read your post here today!!

I intend to get more BC's this coming Jan., do you advocate leaving *every* branch on or just 90%'s? And re containers, just go big from the start, obviously! Am sorry the thread upset you man, was truly expecting your seal of approval so am totally bummed by this, next year I'll leave all(or most-all, depending what's the proper technique) on there.... Re die-back on my BC's as they are now, how long does it take to appear? I already have a spot (from nailing it with my blade when collecting it ) that's fighting to roll-over but am expecting it won't succeed, am fine dealing with some "trunk character" if it comes to it but sucks because I totally thought I'd done this right, I wonder how much die-back zack gets on his where the # of branches is <50% of what I've got? I know your st.kateria BC has that big die-back section on the bottom right above / at the buttress-flare, am now worrying I'm going to have those all over my trunks


[And yeah it's the tree to the right in the 1st pic, I had that pic to show that the two were in the same sunlight position as the other/larger one hasn't gotten this effect yet....Is this 'rattiness'/discoloration of leaf-tips the start of leaf-shedding for winter or should I expect another flush of growth? Despite the tips having gotten more of that discoloration over the past ~week, it's still been growing at least the top primary is taller than it was 2wks ago]

 

[SU2]

What Bill said. It's normal to see stressed foliage on BC in August, especially the first year out of the ground. But you don't repot in that first year.

Is this rattiness/stressed-leaflets the start of it shedding leaves for dormancy? (this is the first specimen I've got that I'll be watching leaves drop from in autumn/winter and have no clue when that period is, all my deciduous trees kept their foliage last winter!)

And I wish I could edit my OP but there's a time-limit...I certainly did not "re-pot", I was using identical oil-pans as @Mellow Mullet does (literally same store ), only instead of "going submersion" I'd always drilled little holes all across the bottom for slow-but-sure drainage (and use higher WHC substrates) and placed the container on a tile (to further slow drainage), my "re-pot" was literally me preparing another container with substrate up to ~85% of the new container's height and simply placing my BC's current container on top of it, I never exposed roots I only allowed the escaped-roots to colonize another container, am so baffled at why that's a bad thing I mean MM will have his in a 2nd oil-pan (of water) from (IIRC!) April til October so is moving it just as much, am so confused how people are seeing this as 'severe' when I see it as the gentlest thing possible, simply placing it onto a new container so it can choose to spread its roots...

(also while I've got your ear, am curious how much die-back you're experiencing on your average collected BC due to branch removal? You say you agreed with what Bill said but he was telling me I made a serious mistake in removing the branches I did, yet I saw pics on your site of a BC in July of its first year with this much branching:
Did I mistake that tree as being a first-year when it really wasn't? I'd posted this in the thread where I'd asked you about removing "redundant branches" but I was thinking this was a first-year tree, still looks like it to me, but if that's the case I can't reconcile Bill's warning of die-back with your aggressive pruning- how does that tree that I pictured look now, was the die-back very substantial? Am getting the impression that w/ BC's the die-back is highly variable (which is odd because, as I learned from Bill's post in an old thread, BCs' vascular systems "criss cross" ie it's not like specific roots feed specific branches/pads, so the sectional die-backs experienced in cases like his St. Kateria tree just baffle me!!)

Sorry for length and thanks for any advice, had thought I was so on-point with my BC's...embarrassed to see I wasn't but better to learn & correct-course sooner than later!!!

 

[SU2]

@BillsBayou (sorry it was too-late to edit this into my reply to you)

I'm just completely in-love with this species (can see why you'd focus on it so heavily!!) and want to do it right, I hope your disapproval was based on me poorly describing how I'd done things but will have to wait on your reply to find-out, however I can't edit it and I wanted to add this:

I just want to be clear about what I'd done because I fear you think I was removing buds or small shoots as-they-occurred if I didn't like their placement, which isn't the case, I'd let it bush-out and then began by removing a branch here&there, branches that were very redundant ie sharing branch-collars or within 1/2" of each other on the trunk, then I removed several (over weeks- never removed many at any one time) from the top because I knew how apically-dominant they are and how important thick lower branches are, and at that point (weeks after the pictured photo here) was when I posted the thread here to ask about proceeding to remove them all....I thought I was being *overly* cautious in even asking, considering how many people's pictures I found where they'd clearly removed most of the branches mid-way through year 1, I still posted to be sure and thought I was until I read your post here :/

Hope it was just me poorly-describing what I'd done, otherwise I'll just have to hope the die-back isn't too-bad and will have to do things better with my '19 batch!!!

 

[choppychoppy]

I just want to be clear about what I'd done because I fear you think I was removing buds or small shoots as-they-occurred if I didn't like their placement, which isn't the case, I'd let it bush-out and then began by removing a branch here&there, branches that were very redundant ie sharing branch-collars or within 1/2" of each other on the trunk, then I removed several (over weeks- never removed many at any one time) from the top because I knew how apically-dominant they are and how important thick lower branches are, and at that point (weeks after the pictured photo here) was when I posted the thread here to ask about proceeding to remove them all....I thought I was being *overly* cautious in even asking, considering how many people's pictures I found where they'd clearly removed most of the branches mid-way through year 1, I still posted to be sure and thought I was until I read your post here :/

I have dozens of BC collected and nursery grown. After collection or first chop from a nursery can I don't do ANYTHING to the tree the first year except water it - No pruning, no messing with the roots, I don't even move the box at all. Leave it alone to recover period. I've told you this in a different thread and shown plenty of pics of BC. But like with EVERY post you make you aren't really interested in following what experienced folks tell you but instead trying to come up with your own plan. Decide to either follow advice or quit asking. Where are the pictures of all these BC that get chopped up during the first year? Where are they 5 -10 years later? Got pictures of those? There are lots of development techniques that are different post collection compared to the refinement stage.

 

[Zach Smith]

Is this rattiness/stressed-leaflets the start of it shedding leaves for dormancy? (this is the first specimen I've got that I'll be watching leaves drop from in autumn/winter and have no clue when that period is, all my deciduous trees kept their foliage last winter!)

And I wish I could edit my OP but there's a time-limit...I certainly did not "re-pot", I was using identical oil-pans as @Mellow Mullet does (literally same store ), only instead of "going submersion" I'd always drilled little holes all across the bottom for slow-but-sure drainage (and use higher WHC substrates) and placed the container on a tile (to further slow drainage), my "re-pot" was literally me preparing another container with substrate up to ~85% of the new container's height and simply placing my BC's current container on top of it, I never exposed roots I only allowed the escaped-roots to colonize another container, am so baffled at why that's a bad thing I mean MM will have his in a 2nd oil-pan (of water) from (IIRC!) April til October so is moving it just as much, am so confused how people are seeing this as 'severe' when I see it as the gentlest thing possible, simply placing it onto a new container so it can choose to spread its roots...

(also while I've got your ear, am curious how much die-back you're experiencing on your average collected BC due to branch removal? You say you agreed with what Bill said but he was telling me I made a serious mistake in removing the branches I did, yet I saw pics on your site of a BC in July of its first year with this much branching:
View attachment 206239 Did I mistake that tree as being a first-year when it really wasn't? I'd posted this in the thread where I'd asked you about removing "redundant branches" but I was thinking this was a first-year tree, still looks like it to me, but if that's the case I can't reconcile Bill's warning of die-back with your aggressive pruning- how does that tree that I pictured look now, was the die-back very substantial? Am getting the impression that w/ BC's the die-back is highly variable (which is odd because, as I learned from Bill's post in an old thread, BCs' vascular systems "criss cross" ie it's not like specific roots feed specific branches/pads, so the sectional die-backs experienced in cases like his St. Kateria tree just baffle me!!)

Sorry for length and thanks for any advice, had thought I was so on-point with my BC's...embarrassed to see I wasn't but better to learn & correct-course sooner than later!!!

Every rule has at least 10 exceptions. The BC of mine you posted came from the swamp with some nice fibrous roots, so I direct potted it. The reason it has few branches is they were deliberately removed so I could make a flat top. The tree was really strong and responded well so my gamble paid off. Do I do this every time? No, only rarely.

I probably didn't read your post in enough detail. If you didn't repot in year one then you're doing all you can. I don't typically trim BC in year one, so they can build root mass. Is the ratty August foliage a precursor to fall leaf drop? I don't believe so, it's more a phenomenon associated with container growth, summer heat making black nursery pots incompatible with tender new feeder roots that have made it to the edge, and lack of interior air circulation. Your tree looks relatively good by comparison.

Anyway, don't take all this too much to heart. You're doing fine, as near as I can tell. Just keep on growing BC and learning how they behave in your yard.

Hope this helps.

 

[BillsBayou]

@BillsBayou (sorry it was too-late to edit this into my reply to you)

I'm just completely in-love with this species (can see why you'd focus on it so heavily!!) and want to do it right, I hope your disapproval was based on me poorly describing how I'd done things but will have to wait on your reply to find-out, however I can't edit it and I wanted to add this:
View attachment 206240
I just want to be clear about what I'd done because I fear you think I was removing buds or small shoots as-they-occurred if I didn't like their placement, which isn't the case, I'd let it bush-out and then began by removing a branch here&there, branches that were very redundant ie sharing branch-collars or within 1/2" of each other on the trunk, then I removed several (over weeks- never removed many at any one time) from the top because I knew how apically-dominant they are and how important thick lower branches are, and at that point (weeks after the pictured photo here) was when I posted the thread here to ask about proceeding to remove them all....I thought I was being *overly* cautious in even asking, considering how many people's pictures I found where they'd clearly removed most of the branches mid-way through year 1, I still posted to be sure and thought I was until I read your post here :/

Hope it was just me poorly-describing what I'd done, otherwise I'll just have to hope the die-back isn't too-bad and will have to do things better with my '19 batch!!!

That's what I thought you were doing. I let the tree tell me what it's capable of doing in the first year. Sometimes, the top will start to sprout (YAY!) with branches down below. The the top dies (WTF!) and all I have is what is left down below. There's nothing you can't correct if you leave it all alone in its first year.

 

[miker]

Summer heat, mine start getting ratty in the late summer, the ones in the landscape do too. Or, rust mites, an infestation will make the tree look like it is rusting, hence their name

I always noticed that in the Orlando area too. Wouldn't worry too much.

 

[SU2]

I have dozens of BC collected and nursery grown. After collection or first chop from a nursery can I don't do ANYTHING to the tree the first year except water it - No pruning, no messing with the roots, I don't even move the box at all. Leave it alone to recover period. I've told you this in a different thread and shown plenty of pics of BC. But like with EVERY post you make you aren't really interested in following what experienced folks tell you but instead trying to come up with your own plan. Decide to either follow advice or quit asking. Where are the pictures of all these BC that get chopped up during the first year? Where are they 5 -10 years later? Got pictures of those? There are lots of development techniques that are different post collection compared to the refinement stage.

I'm sorry if you did tell me to leave every branch on it for the first year as I truly don't recall that, and as I'd said in prior posts the "first year BC with many branches removed" was all I was finding in pictures (that's why I made the thread to ask about this before doing it, if I've erred then I've erred but the thread I linked is literally me asking about this and then going forth based on that, I was absolutely listening)

 

[SU2]

Every rule has at least 10 exceptions. The BC of mine you posted came from the swamp with some nice fibrous roots, so I direct potted it. The reason it has few branches is they were deliberately removed so I could make a flat top. The tree was really strong and responded well so my gamble paid off. Do I do this every time? No, only rarely.

That's good to know, I suspect (though obviously not experienced enough to know) that my BC is also strong enough that this will pay off in this case IE I expect that my top leader is fatter than it otherwise would have been and, now knowing that growing-out tons of large sacrifice-branches is the rule, my concept of "smooth trunked BC's" seems off-base.....when I looked at pictures of completed BC's I found that, despite their tendency to leave massive, bulging wounds where they've had something cut-off, I was still finding smooth-trunked BC's that were 'finished' and I interpreted that as those trees not having had been covered in thick branches that were removed after a year, I mean with how bulgy the wounding is it's hard to picture that those smooth-trunked, finished-bonsai BC's were grown in a way where they had scores and scores of ~7-15mm branches removed after year one...the ones I saw w/ smooth trunks I figured had done what I did to my BC's, and what you did to your BC that I'd pictured, I'd posted threads about this but my impression of a BC that had too-many branches was something like this:
, just massive wounding all over. So now that I'm in the know here re branch-removal, I'm still curious- when I see mature, finished BC's that don't have serious scarring up&down their trunks, it's because they've been grown-out long enough that new trunking has basically "smoothed-out" the types of scars seen in that ^ pic?

You say "only rarely", what of the remainder of your collected first-year BC's? Do they keep all of their shoots? 85%? Just want to be clear, I mean I've seen how bad they can die-back so want to know this for sure, but let's say there's 5 branches all within 1" of each other on the trunking, surely you'd remove 3 or 4 of those 5 so that instead of 5 thinner shoots you'd have 1-2 fatter shoots? As an extreme case, I had a spot on my larger BC that was pushing 7 branches from 1 spot on the trunk (a shared branch-collar amongst all of them), it was the type of thing I looked at and thought "of course it makes sense to remove the thinner/weaker ones"....am unsure how absolute you are with the leaving everything on but would love to hear your answers/specifics on these so I don't err so badly next year!! I fully agree with your sentiment that this is the "King" of American bonsai species and really want to do well with them, I want to have great BC's like you/Bill/MM/etc and am just baffled that I missed this given how much time I read&watched&discussed this, thankfully it seems to have done pretty well regardless ie its top 'leader' primary is one of the thickest branches I've ever grown in a season on collected material and the die-back spot I had near the base is still closing with rapidity so I'll just have to wait & see what kind of die-back I end up with and work from there (when should I start seeing die-back? I'm imagining over the winter, as it gets/stays dormant, would be the time?) Regardless of how much die-back there is I can still work with it at least, so long as it's healthy and if the discoloration /= unhealthy then this thing is the epitome of "vigor"!!

I probably didn't read your post in enough detail.

No worries at all, I probably didn't post clearly enough, I'm still psyched just at the opportunity to discuss these things with the likes of you guys!

If you didn't repot in year one then you're doing all you can.

No I really did not re-pot, I'd had holes in the oil-pan and did the smoothest, most careful lift - it was no more stressful to the root-mass than if I had simply moved the tree's position on my bench, but having placed it on-top of a container of substrate lets those escaped-roots fill it up now so it seemed an obvious move in my eyes, I mean canopy growth is correlated to root mass & growth so, when I only had it in an oil-pan, it seemed logical! But whether the extra substrate helps it grow more than it otherwise would have, I certainly didn't disturb it one bit more than if I'd carefully moved it a foot down the bench, literally that smooth! Was lucky to have a 5gal container that the pan just fit perfectly into the rim of (I have many oil-pans on-hand for potting so was able to choose the perfect-fit 5gal for it, tight fit and rigid 5gal container)

Is the ratty August foliage a precursor to fall leaf drop? I don't believe so, it's more a phenomenon associated with container growth, summer heat making black nursery pots incompatible with tender new feeder roots that have made it to the edge, and lack of interior air circulation. Your tree looks relatively good by comparison.

HELL YEAH!! I can fix that!! That makes so much sense- my larger BC *had not* gotten this effect, and its in a wooden box (more insulation and lighter color), it being a root-temp thing totally explains the disparity between them here, thank you!! Hmm, I wonder how I'll "change the color" of my current (black) container! Will probably just wrap it with whatever white/light-colored sheeting I can find!!

(and thanks for the opinion on the tree, I'd thought it was all good before posting this thread but then was unsure, I know I've erred by removing too-much but wasn't really ascertaining "how bad I F'd myself" with that removal!)

Anyway, don't take all this too much to heart. You're doing fine, as near as I can tell. Just keep on growing BC and learning how they behave in your yard.

Hope this helps.

It helps a lot, thanks And I'm not, or at least not more than is appropriate in this context- I do take it seriously as I'm real passionate about my trees, but at the same time I'm a beginner with a ton of trees (too many...has its pro's & con's) so no matter how much I read & watch & discuss I know I'm still going to make mistakes and as much as it sucks to find I've erred it's more than worthwhile as I want these trees to be *awesome* in 5yrs, 10yrs etc, so I really prize the ability to discuss the stuff with people who have far more experience than I - the only thing that gets to me is when I'm accused of not listening, which has already happened in this thread, when the reality is I did ask & listen and thought I was doing right when apparently I wasn't, lesson-learned but that's not tantamount to not listening, the reality is that for every post that I listen-to as a reply to my posts, I read 20+ other posts - it's probably laughable how much time I've spent reading old threads on BC's, yet I still erred..but it wasn't because I was told I was doing it wrong and then went on and intentionally defied what I was told / thought I knew better, am 100% wholly aware that I *do not* know better (I feel that should be so self-evident by the fact I'm even posting but it's obviously not, I don't know why else one would ask so much if they didn't care about the answers but that's what some are convinced I do and that sucks, and I've no way to convince them otherwise)

 

[Zach Smith]

To answer your question above regarding leaving shoots on my year one trees, they are very slender low down on the trunk because the tree is trying to regain its height and therefore only the superfluous branches near the apex get too thick. This minimizes scarring lower down, since those branches when removed don't leave much of a scar. That example you posted obviously had too many branches that were allowed to remain on the tree far too long.

 

[SU2]

That's what I thought you were doing. I let the tree tell me what it's capable of doing in the first year. Sometimes, the top will start to sprout (YAY!) with branches down below. The the top dies (WTF!) and all I have is what is left down below. There's nothing you can't correct if you leave it all alone in its first year.

AWESOME!!! That is just fantastic to read, I just kept picturing my trunk with like 5+ huge deadwood oro's/shari's after reading your post yesterday, there is one area that I suspect IS susceptible to this although I'm unable to discern if it's "bark shedding" as it grows or if it's die-back under the bark....seeing how that shari (am I using that right?) patch occurred on your st. Ktri specimen had me very wary of die-back on BC's, am glad I at least left those branches on for half the season so hopefully that limits die-back (in any event it's the only species in my garden I can use un-diluted, bright-white lime sulfur on, so some deadwood really wouldn't be that big a deal, so long as the overall health&vigor weren't harmed!)

Just to be as clear as possible, would you still consider it bad to remove some branches if your 6-month-old BC has, say, 5 branches that originate from the same square-inch on the trunk? I know that, for someone like you who processes lots of them, that just leaving them on would be simpler and of little consequence, but since I'll be caring for maybe 10 if I'm lucky (after collecting again this Jan!), I know that situation will come-up again and I'll be looking at those 5 branches and thinking the right move is to eliminate 3-4 of them, would you still advise to leave every last branch in that case?

While I've got your ear I would love to hear your thoughts on timing as I'm really unsure when to expect things / do things, specifically:

- whatever die-back I get, I'm guessing it will become most-visible once the tree's dormant? Am guessing the reduced cambial activity would just fuel die-back spots..

- for pruning, my next step would be a hard-prune, done while dormant, at the same time I'm collecting more...am under the impression that, from the second I can visibly see spring buds setting/engorging, that every minute then-onward it's getting "past optimal time", though what I'm not quite sure on is whether it's good to actually wait til the buds 'wake up', or if it should be done while wholly dormant (if that's the case- which I'm thinking it is- I'd imagine it "safe" to do the pruning anytime while fully-dormant, though optimal to do right-before you expect wake-up so that the tree can quickly start healing the cuts you've made!)

Thanks a ton for the help both here, your youtubes and your posts-in-general, I've gotta say I'm still so surprised at the degree to which BC's get die-back, I know it's the case but it just seems so counter-intuitive to me, not just because of how vigorous they are but also because as you've noted elsewhere they have "criss-cross" cambial flow ie it's not direct root-to-shoot cambial flow but the 'generalized' flow where all/most roots can feed all/most of the canopy, being "that type" of cambium, having very-aggressive cambial roll-over at wounds, and having exceptional vigor makes the die-back phenomena so striking to me (especially cases like your St.Katieri specimen, that wasn't w/o branches on the side that got that big shari/die-back patch, just amazes me how quick it is to die-back!!)

 

[SU2]

To answer your question above regarding leaving shoots on my year one trees, they are very slender low down on the trunk because the tree is trying to regain its height and therefore only the superfluous branches near the apex get too thick. This minimizes scarring lower down, since those branches when removed don't leave much of a scar. That example you posted obviously had too many branches that were allowed to remain on the tree far too long.

I see, that makes sense that the top "crowding out" the sun&growth of the lower branches would )keep them tiny (and available as future options), can only imagine what a mess of thick branches the top would be had I left ~10 branches to grow from the top 2" of my trunk-stump, instead of (1) 4' branch I probably would've had (10) 2' branches, imagine that would've gone much further towards speeding the roll-over of the initial cut too - though with the girth of those branches, if you had (10) big ones coming out of the top inches that had a year's growth, I'd expect that no matter how skilled you were at cutting you would still have a mess of scarring up-top, no? Like, if I'd gone that way and instead of having my (1) tall leader I had a score of smaller-but-thick leaders, then in the start of its 2nd year my first move (so far as I understand) would be the first pruning (which is to be a hard-prune as I understand it!) which'd involve me removing all-but-one of those big thick top branches, the scarring must be insane but I guess the idea is that, over the years, the growth is supposed to even that out? I feel I'm still having trouble grasping this because, considering that picture I posted with the bulging scars, it seems BC's don't really heal-over scars well at all, so for the top where you're trying to develop taper in that small area you'd want things as smooth as possible....but don't see how you'd have that if you had 10 branches grown 1yr on those top couple inches.

(for what it's worth, that picture was tagged as a BC that was 11yrs into training- to me that looks WAY under-developed for that much time, though I've heard someone here - a prominent poster that I'm having trouble remembering ATM - that was saying that that was what they disliked about BC's, that achieving trunking&primaries is all good but that good, densely ramified pads are difficult...they even made a comment to the effect of "show me a densely-ramified BC", the insinuation being a BC is inherently less "densely ramifying" than most trees...)

Do you practice the "each new top leader should be half the size of the one before it" method of pruning top-leaders to develop your apex's taper? I can't remember the poster who suggested this to @Mellow Mullet (or discussed it with him) but the idea is of growing the top leader / hard-pruning back each season in a manner where, each year, the new segment you're adding (what you'd grown the year before and are now hard-pruning in spring) is half the size of the one before it. I like the idea and intend to apply it to my tree here although I'll be honest that I'm utterly confused as to what height I should cut that big primary back to, was picturing something like cutting it back to 6-7" and then doing that approach (which if I'm not mistaken is basically the fibonacci sequence in reverse as you go upward through the apex's taper-levels), only I'm not so sure that 50% reductions are best I imagine it depends on the specific piece you're working and that it may be better to reduce the degree of reduction as you go upward...while the later-stage stuff is far-off, the degree to which I prune that leader in January (~early Feb is my current "best date", til I find it's wrong / sub-optimal it's the best I know) does matter and am thinking something like 6-7" is optimal (which means the actual cut should be an inch higher, to account for bad-luck on where things bud!!)

 

[SU2]

I always noticed that in the Orlando area too. Wouldn't worry too much.

It's such a joy to have posted and found this wasn't some "your tree has X and is going to die" situation (which is what it was looking like on my end- sudden die-back of fresh-tips on a vigorous tree!), I'd noticed some that were ratty in the landscape but I've seen that all summer long depending on the tree (there's some planted down the street from me that have been a yellow-green all summer, no idea why in fact they're planted in a ditch so should be lush..)

Being that this discoloration does not seem to indicate anything about "dormancy is near", and that I've heard that you can defoliate BC's around now (or shortly before now) to get another push out of them (obviously not on a 1st-year BC!!), I cannot help but think it's fair to expect some more "real" growth ie considerable growth, I mean my sun/growing-conditions will be great for another 2mo so if the discoloration isn't indicative of senescence & I just put it on-top-of a 5-gal of substrate, hopefully I can get another good push from this guy!

Very odd how they seem to do these 'pushes', they're real distinct in fact I'd thought mine was close to 'topping-out' for the year about a month ago (as the top had started to grow more radials instead of lengthening itself) but by now it's got a clear 'leader' from those radials and is at least 4-5" higher....with how root-bound it was in the tiny oil-pans I expect that if any significant growth is on-the-table this season, I'll be able to capitalize on it and that is epic because vigorous growth is the best antidote to any die-back I may've caused by prematurely removing the bulk of its branches!!

 

[M. Frary]

STOP FIDDLING WITH THE TREE!!!!

But like with EVERY post you make you aren't really interested in following what experienced folks tell you but instead trying to come up with your own plan. Decide to either follow advice or quit asking

It's a newbie thing I think.
Keep asking until you get advice you like and forget the rest.