Need help on juniper refinement techniques

[Lazylightningny]

Hi everyone. I just watched this Ryan Neil video

in which he states that not all junipers respond the same to pinching/pruning techniques. He works with native northwestern species now, but was trained on Japanese species.

I have so far been pruning all my junipers according to this Michael Hagedorn post http://crataegus.com/2012/08/26/how-to-pinch-junipers/ in which he states to never pinch juniper tips, just prune the new extensions/runners.

So, I have this Juniperus virginiana 'Gray Owl' Juniper. I know the tree and branches need refinement and ramification, but any thoughts on how to tighten up the foliage going forward? I have already pruned last year's new growth (juvenile foliage). Any help from someone with experience in this cultivar would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Adair M]

I'm not familiar with that cultivar. Some naturally have tight growth, some don't. It appears that yours has loose open foliage. It's going to be hard to get that under control for a tree the size of yours. May be ok for a larger tree.

Sometimes, especially with yamadori, the foliage is considered to be "poor quality". So then the solution is to graft on new foliage and working with it instead of the native foliage.

 

[sorce]

I really like where this is at!

I love this species....and I think we need to work with it more.

I have seen mature ones with pretty good foliage...but anything in shade is crap.

So I would assume full sun is a must.

I'm try in to get mine going young, because they sure are vigorous with juvenile foliage. Haven't studied too closely the mature growth...

But I will say.....if it only grew some juve foliage last year....it Probly needed it!

I would try to let it go...while balancing your branch thicknesses...and worry about getting mature foliage again years later.....

When was it collected?

Sorce

 

[Lazylightningny]

This is a nursery plant that I have had in training for only a year. I used rebar to raise the rear main fork, and just gave it its first styling in December. My plan is to gradually cut back to secondary branches to increase taper. It threw out a lot of immature growth this year, which I cut back last month. Some branches need to lengthen, and some need to be shortened. It has been kept in full sun and seemed to like it.

I'll play with it for a couple of years, but ultimately, Adair may be right.

I assume I should not pinch existing growth because that will remove all the growing tips?

 

[jriddell88]

Try some different thinges next season. How vigorous is the growth. Not too familiar with the cultivar either. Try pruNing back further on one of the lower branches next spring and then in the summer see how it reacts maybe ? You seem to have plently of branches down there to do some expirimenting.

 

[sorce]

I assume I should not pinch existing growth because that will remove all the growing tips?

Yeah...It sure looks to just need to grow into that style a bit...I'd be prone to let it run next year....with a play it by day...experimenting with some apex stuff...cuz it has to stay weaker anyway.

But it sure needs to get back into vigor...
And you need to get some girth in those branches......
It'll be a While IMO before you have to worry about end game refinement....
It might be all the way thru a couple juve to mature changes...a few years....
But I love where it's started to...well worth letting it girth up in that stance!

When you do get there....

@jkl has a nice one I believe he has been refining for some time.

And @YukiShiro has a nice one in S.A.
He'll have some useful refining goods too.

I really like how you have a straightish trunk that is sending 2 interesting trunks.
This is another I keep going back to...really captivating.

If you can leave it till that wire bites in....
Take the wire off...and leave it some more...and maybe wire it again Till it bites in....I think you'll have some energy to cut back to...

In the mean time....
I'd love too see what you could make of some similar material....maybe a cheap living Xmas tree? To keep your mind off this one!

I like your style! I'd love to see another!

But....if I gave you 2 thumbs up for artistry....you have to promise to stick them both in your eye IF you think about cutting this again!

Seriously! Great work!
It's worth slowing down on!

Sorce

 

[PaulH]

The important thing with junipers is to only work on them when they are strong and healthy. This is best shown by the presence of strong apical growth, or "runners". If the tree isn't strong you run the great risk of the tree reverting to juvenile growth or even dying. Pretty much true of all junipers though shimpaku is much more tolerant of abuse. Even shimpaku types vary. You can pinch the hell out of Kishu but Itoigawa will go juvenile easily. Best rule of thumb is to wait until they are growing vigorously before messing with them.

 

[garywood]

Lazy, there seems to be a few of these post on COARSE foliage junipers lately. Everyone has their vision of what can be done with them but I'm of the school of - why would you want to spend countless years trying to refine a specie that won't refine on a small trunk. Large trunks can accommodate coarse foliage but small trunks will keep you "fussing" forever.

 

[Adair M]

Lazy, there seems to be a few of these post on COARSE foliage junipers lately. Everyone has their vision of what can be done with them but I'm of the school of - why would you want to spend countless years trying to refine a specie that won't refine on a small trunk. Large trunks can accommodate coarse foliage but small trunks will keep you "fussing" forever.

There is an Alaskan Cedar at the local bonsai shop that has spectacular deadwood. But the foliage is awful. I thought about grafting on Kishu.

 

[Adair M]

Lazy, go back a watch the video again. He says not to cut off too much of the current year's growth. Even if it is juvenile growth. It needs new foliage to produce energy.

 

[Eric Group]

There is a secret to having nice, tight, refined looking foliage on a Juniper- buy Shimpaku (/ Kishu/ Itiogawa...).

Your tree looks nothing like any "Juniperus Virginiana"- known in my area as "Red Cedar"- I have ever seen and they are EVERYWHERE around me... I have never heard of this cultivar, but it certainly does not look like it will develop the tight foliage you want.

It also does not look terribly healthy.. at the very least I'd say it certainly is NOT "THRIVING"! Let it grow for a year, remove wire as you see it start to bite in, and until it really starts to grow actively, do not mess with it!

Then, decide if you want to work with the foliage it has or if you want to learn how to graft. In the mean time, buy about 10 more Junipers. Get some Procumbens Nana. I like them... Tough, easy to work with and nice and compact even whe spitting Juvi foliage, easier to find than Shimpaku. Get SOME SHIMPAKU TOO THOUGH! Trouble finding some? Let me know.

Until you have 5-10+, you are likely to get "itchy fingers" and want to pick at this tree before it is ready for work. The additional tree will give you something to work on while you wait, and you will learn how to care for Juniper ( hopefully, or they will die...), and what makes a Juniper growth habit desirable.

Good luck!

 

[Lazylightningny]

Thanks to all for your input. I'll just let it run next year and get it healthy. Next fall I'll prune back branches to start getting some taper.

 

[sorce]

Next fall I'll prune back branches to start getting some taper.

I'll bet you'll have enough energy to "allow" for that next fall.....but I reckon it's gonna be to early for development....therefore setting you back.

I dont know if you've ever read any of my psychotic/neurotic number games.....
But here's what I'd be doing for management.....

Actually....it's more about the result than the technique.....

For instance....for all intents and purposes...your branches are all the same thickness...you want them to be diminishing in thickness....

Without cutting anything....in theory...you can simply....leave the low branches exposed...put a 50% shade cloth over the middle branches...and 75% shade cloth over the apex. Or the like.

Sounds stupid....but it would work....
And your tree may actually fair better that way than cutting....

If you must cut....it will be a play it be "senses" game.....definitely not cutting low stuff...a little middle....and more top....

I reckon cutting back for taper is about 2-3 years out....

I'm gonna Madden your pic.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I'll bet you'll have enough energy to "allow" for that next fall.....but I reckon it's gonna be to early for development....therefore setting you back.

I dont know if you've ever read any of my psychotic/neurotic number games.....
But here's what I'd be doing for management.....

Actually....it's more about the result than the technique.....

For instance....for all intents and purposes...your branches are all the same thickness...you want them to be diminishing in thickness....

Without cutting anything....in theory...you can simply....leave the low branches exposed...put a 50% shade cloth over the middle branches...and 75% shade cloth over the apex. Or the like.

Sounds stupid....but it would work....
And your tree may actually fair better that way than cutting....

If you must cut....it will be a play it be "senses" game.....definitely not cutting low stuff...a little middle....and more top....

I reckon cutting back for taper is about 2-3 years out....

I'm gonna Madden your pic.

Sorce

Have you ever done this shade cloth technique?

 

[sorce]

Again.....this is only what I would do....
If the situation calls for it....

The green is a generic representation of where you want your branch thicknesses.
Especially in a pineish style tree....this is very important...IMO.

Now.....your taper.....and pad management in this stage for me....would go like this.....

Inside the red is where....2-5 years you can be cutting back to...In the mean time....since you can't safely cut it....
Leave those parts exposed to sun....use the wire, or guy wires, to move the yellow extensions out of the way....

You will essentially be managing your future tree in the close pads! No cutting them at all! And your road to get there in the outer yellow stuff.

Next fall...maybe....you can strip the foliage from the blue area...to further expose your future finished pads and keep them healthy. While letting the yellow continue to run for health.

In the end.....first year...cut the top runner back....second...one down....and so on...this will give your low branches more time to thicken....

But that's just me. Nature says it will work.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Have you ever done this shade cloth technique?

No...Sifu! Hehe....but I added "in theory" for that very reason!

However....I totally would....

I also added...."or the like"....because I have no idea what shade cloth looks or feels like....

But fishnet stockings would be equally effective. In theory.....

How would you manage branch thickness if you couldn't cut...?

Remember....this is not masterclass, or world class material.......yet.

Sorce

 

[GrimLore]

I'll just let it run next year and get it healthy.

It probably is in ok health recovering from the work as they all need to. That cultivar of ERC grows SLOW and that process of "filling" in and "looking" vigorous may take a couple of seasons and that would be normal. Sun and fertilizer will be your friend on this one. Good start though on an often overlooked plant. I see many good Junipers overlooked as they are considered "slow growing ground cover" BUT I will be working several over the next few years from nursery stock to learn them. Be patient, it will grow and before you know it present you with a challenging plant at first but a nice one given time.

Grimmy

 

[Vance Wood]

The important thing with junipers is to only work on them when they are strong and healthy. This is best shown by the presence of strong apical growth, or "runners". If the tree isn't strong you run the great risk of the tree reverting to juvenile growth or even dying. Pretty much true of all junipers though shimpaku is much more tolerant of abuse. Even shimpaku types vary. You can pinch the hell out of Kishu but Itoigawa will go juvenile easily. Best rule of thumb is to wait until they are growing vigorously before messing with them.

Love hearing this. For quite a while the Juniper cause Celeb around here was in the promotion of Itoigawa Junipers and the Kishu was kind of vilified. I came to the personal conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that people were celebrating Itoigawas more out of hero worship than the fact it was a better tree for bonsai. It seems, over the last couple of years, that people have started to see it my way: Why go for a Juniper that goes Juvie on you are the least provocation from watering to pruning, when you can use a Juniper (Kishu) that you can run over with a truck and it stays adult?

As far as native Junipers? The only thing you can do is watch and listen to those who are growing them. They do in fact appear to respond differently. I have had people tell me that the Utah Juniper in the wild is beautiful but under cultivation they are horrible. People don't seem to see the evidence before their eyes that they have to be doing something wrong if the tree is not doing what it naturally does in the field.

I have a really great picture of the Utah Juniper folliage I will post if I can find it anytime soon.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I lived in Utah for many years, and the native junipers are indeed beautiful. Makes me want to write a letter to the BLM for permission to collect, and take a road trip.

 

[Lazylightningny]

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Sorce

I may make this the wallpaper for my laptop