Need help to identify this cultivar

Ugo

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Hi everyone!

While visiting a local nursery I found what I can call an interresting cultivar of Acer.

Leaves are really small, for most the size of a quarter, mostly green, the tree doesnt seems to shoot from everywhere after flush, nodes are rather short so Im wondering what type of cultivar this is!

It seems rather slow growing compared to other Acer Ive seen, this specimen is about 2yrs old.

This one will fit broom style perfectly.

20210821_094102.jpg

20210821_094138.jpg
20210821_094113.jpg

Thanks for your help
Ugo
 

Arlithrien

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It's going to be very difficult to tell this time of year. Document its fall color, spring leaf-out color, and general habit. Is there a graft union? If not it's probably a regular green acer palmatum grown from seed. And there's nothing wrong with that if the genetics are suitable for bonsai.
 
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Forsoothe!

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There are thousands of varieties. No tag, no nada.
 

Ugo

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@Arlithrien

Hi! No there is no graft so yes grown from seeds.
Im just surprised by the size of the leafs compared to other Acer Ive seen so far.

@Forsoothe!
I know... this is just too bad.
I just called back at the nursery to ask some more infos.
The only valid info seems to be that the seeds were brought here from Oregon.
Seems that the owner during a trip to Oregon noticed the small leafs on a full size Acer and ask the owner for the seeds.

As I said, its the first thing that caught my attention as all trees where all together but this one was defenately smaller in height and leafs size for the same age
 

Ugo

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If it’s from seed then it’s not a cultivar, but seedlings can have unique and interesting genetics.
You're right, I just thought it was after seeing this particularity.
 

Adam D

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You're right, I just thought it was after seeing this particularity.
As others mentioned, acer palmatum seedlings typically make better bonsai compared to cultivars. It looks like this seedling has short internodes and small leaves which will be ideal for bonsai. Good luck with it!
 

Arlithrien

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As others mentioned, acer palmatum seedlings typically make better bonsai compared to cultivars. It looks like this seedling has short internodes and small leaves which will be ideal for bonsai. Good luck with it!
Very true. Most breeders select for outstanding traits for gardens, not bonsai. Your seedling might not be named cultivar but it is in a sense, one of a kind.
 
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Ugo

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Seed grown maples on the average make better Bonsai than grafted maples.

This is an excellent choice for bonsai.

There will be no cultivar name. Only genus and species. Did the nursery tell you what species?.
Hi!

No unfortunately not much info on it...
I was trying to get more infos from here!
I can still enjoy the tree but I also like reading about particular varieties.
 

Cruiser

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Hi everyone!

While visiting a local nursery I found what I can call an interresting cultivar of Acer.

Leaves are really small, for most the size of a quarter, mostly green, the tree doesnt seems to shoot from everywhere after flush, nodes are rather short so Im wondering what type of cultivar this is!

It seems rather slow growing compared to other Acer Ive seen, this specimen is about 2yrs old.

This one will fit broom style perfectly.

View attachment 392931

View attachment 392932
View attachment 392933

Thanks for your help
Ugo
Hi Ugo!

Nice find. I’m not sure what kind of cultivar that is but it looks a lot like one I picked up earlier this year.

Roughly the same age as yours. No graft marks. Slower growing. Short nodes. Mine was dug up from beneath the parent tree, a giant Japanese maple planted in 1955 named “Uncle Jerry”.


I think our trees may be “Mutt” maples!
 

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Shibui

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If it’s from seed then it’s not a cultivar, but seedlings can have unique and interesting genetics.
Every seedling is a new and unique cultivar. All the named cultivars were just seedlings that someone recognized as a little different and gave them a name. All you need to do is give this one a new name and we have another JM cultivar to add to the ever growing list.
 

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At some level, all cultivar means is "provenance".

As @Shibui states, there are a number of sources for finding interesting and unique plant material. Yes, it can be through natural genetic variation of seedlings, but it can also be caused by environmental factors, disease, fungus, etc. Many dwarf varieties of pines come from witches brooms. Frank Yee has sourced a lot of cork bark portulacaria from a single plant that he believes experienced a genetic change due to being sprayed with DDT. Regardless, if the change remains stable, and if you can propagate the material and the change remains stable in the offspring, and you can propagate commercial quantities, you can go through the steps to get the material registered.

However no provenance = no cultivar. If you don't know EXACTLY where a plant came from - with a definitive chain of ownership back to the source - what you have is just a generic example of the species. Doesn't matter what it "looks" like. Just because a Japanese maple 'looks' like a 'crimson queen' doesn't make it so.

And to be honest, I've seen some growers who register cultivars with fancy names... and I don't think their cultivar looks meaningfully different from the original. There is definitely some snake oil salesmanship going on out there. Just because something has a fancy name doesn't mean it is all that great.
 
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Arlithrien

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Hi Ugo!

Nice find. I’m not sure what kind of cultivar that is but it looks a lot like one I picked up earlier this year.

Roughly the same age as yours. No graft marks. Slower growing. Short nodes. Mine was dug up from beneath the parent tree, a giant Japanese maple planted in 1955 named “Uncle Jerry”.


I think our trees may be “Mutt” maples!
Your seedling looks very similar to the mikawa yatsubusa I recently ordered. I'm impressed how similar it is. Your chance seedling there is on par with a world renowned cultivar!
 

Forsoothe!

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It's not cheap or easy to commercialize a new plant. The only people who woulda/coulda/shoulda take on such an endeavor are people who are already in the business. To get their interest your plant has to be a genuinely different and survive the "ten foot rule", being able to recognize it as different from ten feet away. That would include growing it on for some number of years to insure that it doesn't evolve from a cute baby to a mature plant with defects or susceptible to disease, etc. Then somebody has to propagate an inventory, grow it on, and after that peddle it widely enough to cover all the costs involved. It would take 10 to 15 years, no small endeavor. Plant patents are not cheap either.

As an individual, you can propagate enough to make a buck, but won't make you a millionaire either. You can sell to the bonsai community via the internet, but that's a small bunch who are cheap price shoppers. As a fun project, good for a laugh.
 
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Arlithrien

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It's not cheap or easy to commercialize a new plant. The only people who woulda/coulda/shoulda take on such an endeavor are people who are already in the business. To get their interest your plant has to be a genuinely different and survive the "ten foot rule", being able to recognize it as different from ten feet away. That would include growing it on for some number of years to insure that it doesn't evolve from a cute baby to a mature plant with defects or susceptible to disease, etc. Then somebody has to propagate an inventory, grow it on, and after that peddle it widely enough to cover all the costs involved. It would take 10 to 15 years, no small endeavor. Plant patents are not cheap either.

As an individual, you can propagate enough to make a buck, but won't make you a millionaire either. You can sell to the bonsai community via the internet, but that's a small bunch who are cheap price shoppers. As a fun project, good for a laugh.
The patents only last 20 years as well, which is criminal considering the time and effort to propagate a tree. Meanwhile Disney has lawyered their digital IP patents up to 70 years.

I am skeptical of that 10 foot rule considering how many bogus cultivars of acer palmatum there are. A lot of the older cultivars are distinct, very outstanding or define an entire genre like coral bark or rough bark. Meanwhile you have a dozen supposedly better-bloodgoods, two dozen dissectums of not-quite-red. Dont even get me started on Shirazz vs Geisha Gone Wild.
 
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Forsoothe!

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The patents only last 20 years as well, which is criminal considering the time and effort to propagate a tree. Meanwhile Disney has lawyered their digital IP patents up to 70 years.

I am skeptical of that 10 foot rule considering how many bogus cultivars of acer palmatum there are. A lot of the older cultivars are distinct, very outstanding or define an entire genre like coral bark or rough bark. Meanwhile you have a dozen supposedly better-bloodgoods, two dozen dissectums of not-quite-red. Dont even get me started on Shirazz vs Geisha Gone Wild.
Actually plant patents have to be renewed at substantial cost several times over the life of the patent and you have to separately subscribe to an enforcing service which ain't cheap. Lawyers. Claims of superiority in plants is like anything else, -to be taken with a grain of salt. Propagating a look-alike is cheaper than paying a royalty to someone else, and just registering a plant name is cheap enough, like "Fred's Bloodgood".
 

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And don't forget... cultivars may not be visually different from each other. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is American elm cultivars that are resistant to Dutch elm disease - but otherwise identical to the species holotype.
 
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Ugo

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It's not cheap or easy to commercialize a new plant. The only people who woulda/coulda/shoulda take on such an endeavor are people who are already in the business. To get their interest your plant has to be a genuinely different and survive the "ten foot rule", being able to recognize it as different from ten feet away. That would include growing it on for some number of years to insure that it doesn't evolve from a cute baby to a mature plant with defects or susceptible to disease, etc. Then somebody has to propagate an inventory, grow it on, and after that peddle it widely enough to cover all the costs involved. It would take 10 to 15 years, no small endeavor. Plant patents are not cheap either.

As an individual, you can propagate enough to make a buck, but won't make you a millionaire either. You can sell to the bonsai community via the internet, but that's a small bunch who are cheap price shoppers. As a fun project, good for a laugh.

Very interessting discussion as always!
Well I think this cultivar, for a lack of a better word, should be more popular and available to the bonsai community.
If the tree is in good health Ill plant some shoots next spring and send them to whoever wants to pay shipping.
I understand the buiness under it but for me bonsai is about sharing the knowledge, sharing the love so free samples could be my little contribution to bonsai lovers who help me days after days with all my beginner, weird and curious questions!
 

Ugo

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Hi!

Just wanted to share image of the tree in its vibrant autum color.

20211105_160213.jpg

Next year I will go for a repot in a training pot.
I still have to study more on size and shape of training pots but with a bit of trunk wiring and time this little tree will be beautifull in a formal upright style.
 

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