need Preparation tips for lifting/collecting a landscape Shirasawanum Autumn Moon

[Japonicus]

I don't want to screw this one up!

10 years ago...

...the high graft broke soon after planting in the ground. Purchased from and grafted by Lucile Whitman
of Whitman Farms, whom I also got my japonicum Otaki from, she talked me through how to repair the break.

So this is a year ago come April. The broken graft created a nice shari as it healed that I would like to keep, but that is quickly healing over.




This is the tree now, the shari healing over all the more.

Not wanting to screw this up and get it right the 1st time I sure could use some guidance with timing of pruning and lifting.
My first thoughts were to lift it now, being a time to repot maples, keeping all foliage to strengthen the roots.

I've done a minuscule amount of pruning on this over the last 10 years, and no root work as I had originally planned
to keep it as a landscape tree grown freely, due to the high graft.
However, the graft is perfectly matched enough for me.
The height of the tree is natural being in full Sun, so it is NOT a vigorous grower.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I think you should just keep it as a landscape tree, it is grafted too high for bonsai (if I am looking at it right, the entire trunk is the root stock?). There is no lower branching to work with. Take it form someone who thought that everything could be made a bonsai, you will end up with a lot of plants to take care of that lack potential.

 

[Japonicus]

@Mellow Mullet I was shooting for a 24-30” tree with this.
Leaf size of the Moon maple I was hoping was in my favor on this.

Also would like to layer the top right branch while at it this Spring
if I weren’t to lift it this year.

 

[Dorky_gearhead]

I would dig a 1 foot wide trench at least 18 inches from the trunk. Go down about 2 feet on the trench. Use sharp loopers to cut roots. Dig a large hole outside the trench so you can access the bottom of your 2 foot trench to cut the vertical roots.

If you want to remove it next spring, you could plunge the shovel about 1 foot from the trunk, all the way around. This will keep the vertical roots intact and promote more roots forming close to the trunk. Make sure your shovel is going straight down. The handle will be leaning towards the tree.

 

[Japonicus]

I would dig a 1 foot wide trench at least 18 inches from the trunk. Go down about 2 feet on the trench. Use sharp loopers to cut roots. Dig a large hole outside the trench so you can access the bottom of your 2 foot trench to cut the vertical roots.

If you want to remove it next spring, you could plunge the shovel about 1 foot from the trunk, all the way around. This will keep the vertical roots intact and promote more roots forming close to the trunk. Make sure your shovel is going straight down. The handle will be leaning towards the tree.

This is similar of a technique Walter Pall suggests to ...

Trench around the tree in April 6X the trunk diameter roughly 12-18 inches across...

Back fill with bonsai soil...

Prune in July...if the tree responds well, then lift the following Spring.

I cropped this picture previously posted to frame where I think I will be pruning to.
The left branch will be allowed to grow for now after the framed pruning point is reality
to allow die back having so few branches above the intended bonsai.

Would be nice to know the root stock...
I like this character. I can't find enough fault with the graft to call it a deal breaker for my display area.
It is 10.25" to the perceived epicenter of the wound. It has a grayish colour right there.
It is!! intimidating however to not have success with deciduous confined to a pot, and I feel like I'm
cutting my teeth with a tree I'd hate to lose. It's in full Sun now and gets beat up late Summer.
I really feel it would show better if it were mobile, and while I'm at that, I will layer the top right branch
and lift it for potting up if not next Spring, then the following 2021 Spring will be it.

I was just thinking I should ask advice on the timing of all this...
whether it's safe to keep the scar festered up with sandpaper/wire brush and lime sulphur...
and some pointers on developing the canopy/style as I go (as I get to that point).

Can't replace experience with reading so I'm hoping my experience along the way is rewarding with this maple.
The scars character just looks like an old lightening wound to me where a branch died.
The graft, and what inconsistency there is can be perceived as the shoulder where there
trunk healed from the lost limb, though, there never was a limb there to lose, but the union instead.
Perhaps the root stock is more Winter hardy than the cultivar.

 

[Japonicus]

The envisioned structure for the hard prune is cropped into the picture above post #5
except for the length of the left and back facing branch(es) that will be cut back similarly.

 

[Maloghurst]

This is similar of a technique Walter Pall suggests to ...

Trench around the tree in April 6X the trunk diameter roughly 12-18 inches across...

Back fill with bonsai soil...

Prune in July...if the tree responds well, then lift the following Spring.

I cropped this picture previously posted to frame where I think I will be pruning to.
The left branch will be allowed to grow for now after the framed pruning point is reality
to allow die back having so few branches above the intended bonsai.
View attachment 230007
Would be nice to know the root stock...
I like this character. I can't find enough fault with the graft to call it a deal breaker for my display area.
It is 10.25" to the perceived epicenter of the wound. It has a grayish colour right there.
It is!! intimidating however to not have success with deciduous confined to a pot, and I feel like I'm
cutting my teeth with a tree I'd hate to lose. It's in full Sun now and gets beat up late Summer.
I really feel it would show better if it were mobile, and while I'm at that, I will layer the top right branch
and lift it for potting up if not next Spring, then the following 2021 Spring will be it.

I was just thinking I should ask advice on the timing of all this...
whether it's safe to keep the scar festered up with sandpaper/wire brush and lime sulphur...
and some pointers on developing the canopy/style as I go (as I get to that point).

Can't replace experience with reading so I'm hoping my experience along the way is rewarding with this maple.
The scars character just looks like an old lightening wound to me where a branch died.
The graft, and what inconsistency there is can be perceived as the shoulder where there
trunk healed from the lost limb, though, there never was a limb there to lose, but the union instead.
Perhaps the root stock is more Winter hardy than the cultivar.

The rootstock is almost certainly your basic green Japanese maple.
Which means you’ll never have any branching below the union. At least that matches the autumn moon. So I don’t see how this tree will ever look like a bonsai tree with the long section before the graft.
You canopy will never fit with dimensions of the long straight trunk. It will look like topiary.
Your best chance ( and I have never advocated air layer before) is to air layer somewhere near the union. And make a tree from the rootstock as well.
The nebari looks good from the picture.
If you do this I would do it all before removing from the ground.
Maybe you should do a vert of what you hope it will look like if you try to just put in a pot and start developing as a bonsai

 

[Pitoon]

You could take several air layers from up top, and possibly thread graft next season. If you do that route, you may be passing that tree on to your heirs and they may be finishing it up getting ready to pass it to theirs.

 

[Japonicus]

The rootstock is almost certainly your basic green Japanese maple.
Which means you’ll never have any branching below the union. At least that matches the autumn moon. So I don’t see how this tree will ever look like a bonsai tree with the long section before the graft.
You canopy will never fit with dimensions of the long straight trunk. It will look like topiary.
Your best chance ( and I have never advocated air layer before) is to air layer somewhere near the union. And make a tree from the rootstock as well.
The nebari looks good from the picture.
If you do this I would do it all before removing from the ground.
Maybe you should do a vert of what you hope it will look like if you try to just put in a pot and start developing as a bonsai

This sounds like the general consensus. If I were to have done this thread in a poll type setting, you would certainly be in the majority rule.
Since I don't have near the experience with maples in pots as the general consensus, and the lack of vigour moon maples have,
it sounds like I should do the tree a favor and leave it in the ground.
I have the top right section attempting an air layer currently. I'm having my doubts on those Rooter Pots using aggregates rather than sphagnum because,
unlike a bag taped about the branch/trunk, we have movement perhaps eroding new roots as they form. I have another going since early Spring,
yet to see roots on either, both loaded with bonsai soil with some 8822 in the mix. These are my 1st layer attempts.

You could take several air layers from up top, and possibly thread graft next season. If you do that route, you may be passing that tree on to your heirs and they may be finishing it up getting ready to pass it to theirs.

LOL I know...as are most of my projects No heirs though.
I just feel like I'm giving up by not following through with the plan, ya know?
I certainly have enough other projects that need attention, perhaps that will offset the defeat by a small margin.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Why not air layer above the graft and have 2 trees? There's descent movement in the top

 

[Japonicus]

Why not air layer above the graft and have 2 trees? There's descent movement in the top

I am. The right upper branch is currently attempting a layer in a Rooter Pot


I’m glad I got started on that before it leafed out all the way. I am doing 2 layers ATM, one on a dwarf Wilson’s Pink as well.

 

[Japonicus]

Maybe you should do a vert of what you hope it will look like if you try to just put in a pot and start developing as a bonsai

I've never done a vert as my stick figure skills are poor.
I've never used a particular inspirational tree for any of my projects, copying another tree form.
However, in this instance and the time I've had to ponder, that's not a bad idea.
Still, my drawing skills suck, so I will post a couple of pictures I feel fit in with the original plan.

Where I grew up the American beech tree grew well on our property.
One was tagged by the Forestry Division as the biggest in circumference in our state at that time
and the year my Dad died, that tree died. I've seen raccoons living in and chasing along a branch on that tree
in the silhouette of the moon, squirrels prepping for Winter, and even smoked some of the leaves in typewriter rice paper

This is probably the youngest of any established beech trees we had. Sadly I don't find a picture of the big beech and the tag with dimensions on it.

Just beyond this poplar tree are 3 more small beech one hidden. They grew on this North facing side of the ridge we lived on but not the South.
The South side actually was more shaded than the exposed North side. A beech tree just to the right here we had a tire swing in.

Taken from the web, this tree could be viewed for an inspirational tree for the project.

I also have this kind of damage to carve out at the graft, just below the 1st branch, shari to nebari.
I'm really failing to see dissimilarities, and just a bugger to be a quitter.

 

[Maloghurst]

I've never done a vert as my stick figure skills are poor.
I've never used a particular inspirational tree for any of my projects, copying another tree form.
However, in this instance and the time I've had to ponder, that's not a bad idea.
Still, my drawing skills suck, so I will post a couple of pictures I feel fit in with the original plan.

Where I grew up the American beech tree grew well on our property.
One was tagged by the Forestry Division as the biggest in circumference in our state at that time
and the year my Dad died, that tree died. I've seen raccoons living in and chasing along a branch on that tree
in the silhouette of the moon, squirrels prepping for Winter, and even smoked some of the leaves in typewriter rice paper
View attachment 242336
This is probably the youngest of any established beech trees we had. Sadly I don't find a picture of the big beech and the tag with dimensions on it.
View attachment 242337
Just beyond this poplar tree are 3 more small beech one hidden. They grew on this North facing side of the ridge we lived on but not the South.
The South side actually was more shaded than the exposed North side. A beech tree just to the right here we had a tire swing in.
View attachment 242339
Taken from the web, this tree could be viewed for an inspirational tree for the project.
View attachment 242340
I also have this kind of damage to carve out at the graft, just below the 1st branch, shari to nebari.
I'm really failing to see dissimilarities, and just a bugger to be a quitter.

I’ve got no problem with the graft. Just the scale of canopy to trunk.
Your looking at forest trees which of course get shaded out so no lower branches but have taper etc.
Look at almost any deciduous tree in nature, landscape, field etc. or a finished tree in a bonsai pot. The height of the canopy from top to bottom is usually 70%-80% or more of the total height of the tree.
Your branching has to start so high already that it would never look like a natural tree. You need lower branching which you will never have
The circles here represent a canopy just to give an idea of scale. The second pic would be a little more realistic and the third is the first pic I found of a beech tree.
I under stand you could be thinking of a different style all together and looking a your pics if you wanted this tree to be the center piece of a forest then scale issue could be resolved within a forest.
If you could airlayer a couple inches below the green circle then you could have a nice tree. Then if the trunk buds you could make a second from the current base.

 

[Maloghurst]

This tree looks like the junction of graft and branching of your tree but If you saw this whole tree then you see the canopy is probably 3x the height of the bare trunk.

 

[Japonicus]

@Maloghurst I know I'm being that brat at the back of the room that does not want to conform to the rules.
I appreciate your input and patience, and I am not ignoring it. At least I do have the 2 others from Brent on their own feet.

I lifted this ugly duckling Mt maple back in March, in the ground as long as this Moon maple. I have less ideas about building it than I do the Moon
but perhaps I can learn a few things on it as I go. This was taken about a month ago, and still growing on. I cannot learn much on the foliage yet
as I'm leaving foliage to recover, so it would be silly to start ramification, with drastic pruning in the near future as well. Maples/deciduous are just outside of
my current comfort zone.

I really do have more than enough projects going than I have the time for, so for now, I'm hoping the layer takes.
If it does not, at least it was a branch that was going to be removed prior to lifting the tree, and I was going to hard prune anyway.

 

[Maloghurst]

I don’t care too much about rules per Se.
I’m all for trees that break rules and if your tree was exactly the same but the graft was low then I’d say go for it. I’m just having trouble seeing how it could work.
Maybe you could superimpose a image of a tree branching you like and see how it fits on top of the long trunk?
Good luck keep updating!

 

[LanceMac10]

@Japonicus here is the tree right before repot. You can see it's got the "1-2-3 branch" structure on a single trunk line. We didn't develop it, came to the garden like this......


Developed initially in a bonsai pot, it was then planted out for about a decade or so. Then probably lifted and put in this pot or maybe once in something bigger, details are cloudy.....
….don't see any reason why you couldn't do something similar?

You'll probably need a few progressively smaller grow boxes to get the rootball down to size.


How about some wire on that lowest branch? Out of all that's there, I would try that as my first branch and get it flat or down, even....ya' "pine tree style"!







It's a project, for sure. I would settle on a trunk line, one apex. Beside that first branch, not much else looks well placed. But you need some buds to fuel root growth, especially since you might have to get pretty aggressive with the roots. Once you get it established and vigorous in a box, I would probably remove crap branches and place a better branch structure on it.


I actually did have a "whatever" moon maple for a few years.. Grew ok, I guess, and yes, grafted. Real course growth, long inter-nodes, thick petioles and broad leaves....your tree might need to be 36+ inches tall, probably more....

Never weighed in on your thread, I hate typing my thoughts, but it's a lot to do here for results that 50% won't like. It looks fantastic in your yard, I must say!! You won't learn much without trying, though!


…..but I'm pretty sure most people here wouldn't mind having this in their garden......





...good luck and update at your leisure....

 

[Japonicus]

Yesterday I lifted this maple and moved it to a more protected area getting relief from late afternoon Sun and Westerly winds.

I filled the void with a mixture of good top soil and about 8 gallons of used bonsai soil.
Scraped desired root zone in a few strategic spots and brushed on Clonex. Plan is to establish then begin pruning back to rebuild canopy 2025 or 26.
In fact I expect to selectively begin cut back to see how it responds before I go full on rebuild.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Looks like you have volunteers lining up for thread grafts!

 

[Japonicus]

Looks like you have volunteers lining up for thread grafts!View attachment 536504

TBH I hadn't thought about that.
I take a look at it tomorrow. Pretty dark n muddy right now. What's that sorce says...rain n wane good for transplanting
I'm right on target with this one for that.