Needle Hardening Off Clarification

fore

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Are Pine needles hardened off when they've opened up and have had a slight darkening? Or is it not complete until the full waxy covering has been established?
Thanks
 

Cypress187

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They also get sharper, i think dark is enough (but im bad with pines, so you really should wait for some masterpiece-member's advice).
 

Eric Group

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Jbp needles will be secure in the sheath when hardened off. If you tug a new needle and it comes right out, they're not hardened off yet.
Brian, I love it when you post! Obviously because you've good info, but also because we get to see that gorgeous Juniper in your avatar!
 

fore

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Thanks sdavis and Brian. Not work, but when to start fert. to keep needles short. This is the first yr really of what I'd consider the refining stage for my trees.
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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Not work, but when to start fert. to keep needles short.
Ahhh...that would have been good to know in the first place. Good luck keeping needles short. Best to keep the tree big.

If you don't have Larry Jackal's book on Pondys, it's worth tracking down. In it, he "interviews" several artists who keep pondys in different areas of the country, who share their tips on cultivation. Fall pruning to induce back budding for the following spring is a reoccurring theme. Typically, more buds ->more needles -> the smaller they grow.

If you're withholding fertilizer to keep needles short, you can expect all aspects of training to slow down significantly. I'd follow the feeding programs used on JWP for the same purpose. Down here, I've been taught to start feeding them in mid-September. A guess is to feed them during the last 8 weeks before your first hard freeze.
 

Eric Group

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I do not own a Ponderosa Pine... I have not been particularly interested in them.. What is the appeal as Bonsai subjects? They have long needles, not a particularly beautiful green color to them.. Do they bark up really fast or back bud better than other indigenous US species? Grow faster/slower? Is it just a matter of them growing in places where they become so twisted and naturally "styled" by the wind/ elements and so they make good Yamadori? Serious question because I have only ever seen pics and not worked with one in Person...

I am trying some pine seedlings that volunteered in my yard, just for a little learning experiment and to get some work wiring young pines and seeing how much they can take... So far they are reacting pretty well. I have narrowed it down a bit but am still not 100% sure what type of pines I have (Loblolly is my suspicion) They grow needles 3 to a bunch and most have kind of a thin whispy somewhat irregular shape right now. Pretty long when I let them extend. I pruned one back hard to just a few adventitious buds early this Soring, and he is producing VERY short needles now with a pleasing arrow straight, uniform pattern... Seems to have great Bonsai potential, but I don't know if this can be reproducd annually- probably kill the tree...
 

Tutts

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If you are interested in Ponderosas then a must have is Jackel's book, which is available on the ABS site
http://www.absbonsai.org/store/ponderosa-pines-bonsai
Also, if you want to see some typical Ponderosas check Andy Smith's site
http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/goldenarrowbonsai.com/Home.html
Trunks and bark are fantastic, they do bud back but nowhere close to what a JBP will do. Again, see Jackel's book for the back budding. Also, the needles do not reduce to the same extent as a JBP. Because of that, you might want to work with larger trees.
 

Adair M

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Twisted, gnarly, deadwood.

That's the appeal.

Some have grafted. JBP on them. Some have grafted JWP.

The needles will reduce once you get good ramification. They are very cold hardy. Very flexible. You can bend them, but the bends don't "set" very well. You'll always have to keep wire on them.

I have two Pondy's. To be perfectly honest, I really prefer JBP. JBP are really responsive to technique. Pondy's are much slower.

Then again, I suppose that once one of my Pondy's gets to where I feel it's "show able", I'll be able to take great satisfaction that I was able to live that long!
 

fore

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Missed you post Adair. Well said. Though I've never heard that they req wire left on indefinitely. I'll ask Ryan about this next mos

But Adair, how do you define needle hardening?
 

M. Frary

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When they look like last year's needles.
 

qwade

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Mostly I don't know jack. However , with this question my thinking is most needles are harden off by fall. Patience!! Of course most would like to get 2 for 1 . In this case depending on the pine you would have to defer to the other posters.
 

Adair M

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Fore, I don't have enough experience with Pondy's to say. Usually they would have hardened off by early fall.

I do have two Pondy's, and since I live in the South, they get a long growing season, and the needles grow all summer!

With JBP, the needles darken, they get sharp to the touch, and as Brian Van Fleet said, they don't pull out easily. This usually happens in late fall/early winter. (For summer candles that emerged after decandling the spring candles).
 

Adair M

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Just for the heck of it, I just went out and tested one of my JBP. (I haven't decandled yet). So, the needles are still a lighter green than last year's, they're beginning to get sharp, and they did give some resistance to being pulled, but it pulled rather easily.

So, my JBP are not hardened off yet.

Doesn't really matter, they're getting decandled next week!
 
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