Needle Plucking Advice

AndyJ

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Hey folks.

I don’t know if this question has been answered somewhere in the forum already - apologies if it has, perhaps you can redirect me to the appropriate posts. Anyway.....

Needle plucking - why do it? I’m a little confused - doesn’t pulling needles remove vigour from a branch? And therefore slow the growth of the shoot on that branch? It also makes a branch more leggy doesn’t it and pushes the growth away from the trunk? And then we want to chase the foliage back to the trunk ...... ? If we candle cut JBP’s or pinch JWP’s and Scot’s, we want adventitious buds or needle buds to appear further back along the branches; does plucking needles not damage the bud that we want to develop?

I know needle plucking is very important technique but and I don’t understand when it should be deployed, for what reason, and what the expected outcome is. Can you guys help?

Thanks all,

Andy
 

0soyoung

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The amount of foliage determines the amount of growth, if it is in the sun. Removing foliage weakens the branch/stem/tree growth.

So,
  1. expose the interior of the tree to sunlight
    1. Shaded foliage tends to be abandoned.
  2. to balance growth over the tree
    1. or unbalance it in the way you wish.
Left alone, the highest foliage of a pine will be the most productive and will grow the most. Lower branches won't grow as much and will be abandoned when they become shaded. Backbuds may open, but they occur ing the interior and will quickly be abaandoned without sufficient sunlight. Without back buds, the foliage simply marches away from the trunk.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@AndyJ
You mostly have it correct. Personally, I never "pluck" needles, I cut them right at the terminal of the basal sheath. This way there is less possibility of damaging the dormant bud between the needles of the JBP. When I refer to needle plucking, I really mean I personally cut needles off.

Needle plucking is a technique for refinement of Japanese Black Pines, JBP. It is not for young, early phases of development JBP. It is only for branches or whole trees that have entered the refinement phase. The technique is usually limited mainly to Japanese black pines.

If you have a young tree, that will be cut back, or have major pruning. Do not needle pluck. One can prune back to nodes that are 2, 3 or 4 years old if you still have needles. The 4 year old buds will reliably activate if you still have needles. If you pluck needles, you can not prune back to bare branches. A bare branch will die. So keep in mind always, needle plucking is a refinement technique, not to be used on young trees, where bulking up diameter of the trunk is in progress and a future significant pruning back of branches is planned.

Mainly just Japanese black pines is it claimed that needle plucking stimulates back budding. Key is that the removal of needles exposes the bare branch to sunlight. One can wire branches to be exposed to direct sunlight. Even if needles remain, in direct sun, they will back bud. Thinning the needles above a branch that needs back budding is key, more important than clearing the target branch of needles. Just getting the sun on the target branch is what is needed to get back buds.

For Japanese white pine - needle plucking is not a routine procedure. JWP needles only survive 18 to 36 months. Older needles fall every late summer. Only in refinement of near exhibit quality trees will some needle plucking be done with the sole purpose of balancing vigor. It is less frequently done for JWP than it is done for JBP. The exception in JWP would be a very dense tree that is shading out its own branches. Here some thinning of upper needles might be done to allow light to penetrate.

For other pines, again, needle plucking is not routine. If it is done at all, it is only to trees in their final stages of refinement for exhibition. It is done only to balance energy. Removing needles, removes or damages the dormant buds from between the needles. Needle plucking does not "force" back budding. Wiring branches so they are exposed to full sun, that is the most effective way to stimulate back budding. Good vigorous growth forces back budding. Removing needles lowers vigor and slows back budding.

Actually, as I finish this, there are 2 times to needle pluck, or to cut needles or to thin out density of needles.

First is to allow light to penetrate areas of the tree that are becoming too heavily shaded. This is the only time it is done on a young tree in early phases of training. So only when shading out is an issue, would this technique be used.

Second, it is a refinement technique, used to balance energy and growth of trees that are near exhibition ready.

Finally, it is not a procedure to be done routinely. It is only done with purpose, with intent for a desired result. It is not for young trees in early phases of development.
 

Adair M

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@AndyJ
You mostly have it correct. Personally, I never "pluck" needles, I cut them right at the terminal of the basal sheath. This way there is less possibility of damaging the dormant bud between the needles of the JBP. When I refer to needle plucking, I really mean I personally cut needles off.

Needle plucking is a technique for refinement of Japanese Black Pines, JBP. It is not for young, early phases of development JBP. It is only for branches or whole trees that have entered the refinement phase. The technique is usually limited mainly to Japanese black pines.

If you have a young tree, that will be cut back, or have major pruning. Do not needle pluck. One can prune back to nodes that are 2, 3 or 4 years old if you still have needles. The 4 year old buds will reliably activate if you still have needles. If you pluck needles, you can not prune back to bare branches. A bare branch will die. So keep in mind always, needle plucking is a refinement technique, not to be used on young trees, where bulking up diameter of the trunk is in progress and a future significant pruning back of branches is planned.

Mainly just Japanese black pines is it claimed that needle plucking stimulates back budding. Key is that the removal of needles exposes the bare branch to sunlight. One can wire branches to be exposed to direct sunlight. Even if needles remain, in direct sun, they will back bud. Thinning the needles above a branch that needs back budding is key, more important than clearing the target branch of needles. Just getting the sun on the target branch is what is needed to get back buds.

For Japanese white pine - needle plucking is not a routine procedure. JWP needles only survive 18 to 36 months. Older needles fall every late summer. Only in refinement of near exhibit quality trees will some needle plucking be done with the sole purpose of balancing vigor. It is less frequently done for JWP than it is done for JBP. The exception in JWP would be a very dense tree that is shading out its own branches. Here some thinning of upper needles might be done to allow light to penetrate.

For other pines, again, needle plucking is not routine. If it is done at all, it is only to trees in their final stages of refinement for exhibition. It is done only to balance energy. Removing needles, removes or damages the dormant buds from between the needles. Needle plucking does not "force" back budding. Wiring branches so they are exposed to full sun, that is the most effective way to stimulate back budding. Good vigorous growth forces back budding. Removing needles lowers vigor and slows back budding.

Actually, as I finish this, there are 2 times to needle pluck, or to cut needles or to thin out density of needles.

First is to allow light to penetrate areas of the tree that are becoming too heavily shaded. This is the only time it is done on a young tree in early phases of training. So only when shading out is an issue, would this technique be used.

Second, it is a refinement technique, used to balance energy and growth of trees that are near exhibition ready.

Finally, it is not a procedure to be done routinely. It is only done with purpose, with intent for a desired result. It is not for young trees in early phases of development.
I agree with most everything you just said. Except I do pull the old needles on my refined JBP. YES, it destroys the dormant needle bud, but usually, I don’t care. If I want back budding, it’s the old, dormant adventitious buds that lay back in the old bud junctions that I want to stimulate. That occurs with a combination of wiring and foliage thinning (needle pulling) to expose them to the sun.
 

AndyJ

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Thanks Leo - really detailed answer that explains really clearly. All my trees are still in development so I don’t need to worry for a while - was concerned that I should be doing something now that I’m not!

This is something I learned:

One can prune back to nodes that are 2, 3 or 4 years old if you still have needles. The 4 year old buds will reliably activate if you still have needles”

I didn’t know you could do this! I thought that you’re only option for cutting back was to decandle - I didn’t realise I could cut back into a young branch that was covered in needles and that branch would shoot from the needles - this is a real eye opener for me!!! Where will the buds appear? Is it on the end of the cut part like what happens when you decandle? Or will it shoot back within the needles? What about timing for this? When is the best time to cut these back? I’ve got a couple of trees that have young branches that have just one shoot on them and are in danger of getting leggy and not adding to the trees design. If I can cut these back and have them back bud I’ll be away again!
 

Silentrunning

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Would it be possible to get a few pictures of the processes named here to be sure we don’t pinch or cut too much? I am still a bit confused on this and hate to waste a year’s growth due to inexperience.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Thanks Leo - really detailed answer that explains really clearly. All my trees are still in development so I don’t need to worry for a while - was concerned that I should be doing something now that I’m not!

This is something I learned:

One can prune back to nodes that are 2, 3 or 4 years old if you still have needles. The 4 year old buds will reliably activate if you still have needles”

I didn’t know you could do this! I thought that you’re only option for cutting back was to decandle - I didn’t realise I could cut back into a young branch that was covered in needles and that branch would shoot from the needles - this is a real eye opener for me!!! Where will the buds appear? Is it on the end of the cut part like what happens when you decandle? Or will it shoot back within the needles? What about timing for this? When is the best time to cut these back? I’ve got a couple of trees that have young branches that have just one shoot on them and are in danger of getting leggy and not adding to the trees design. If I can cut these back and have them back bud I’ll be away again!

You cut back to the previous year's or up to 4 year's previous NODES. Especially on younger trees, they sometimes only produce one candle at a node. For these you can cut, just above up to 4 year's previous nodes, you don't cut through the node, or below the node. Then buds in the node will activate. These are the same buds that would have activated if it was decandled previously. The needles below supply energy to the buds at the node. Less reliable, but possible are needle buds activating between the nodes. This is possible, just not quite as much a "sure bet" as buds at the old nodes.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Not to confuse issues. Decandling JBP is a separate topic. It too is a technique for refinement, not for young trees early in the process of establishing main structure. There are times that you skip decandling, like when you repot, no decandling the same year you repot.

If you do not cut or pull previous year's needles that year, when the next time for decandling comes up, you can "go back" two years, as long as needles are present on the branch after the decandling.

Bare branches normally die without needles.
 

Tieball

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Here’s a link. I don’t know the pine you’re talking about but I found this article informative and interesting.....and then....I experimented using the technique to find that it does work (on my Jack Pine).
Tips
 

Shibui

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a picture is worth a few words so maybe this visual will help.
prune pines.PNG

Decandling is when we cut at the black line. New buds will form from the base of the cut shoots but not usually from the needles below.

Healthy pine needles have dormant buds at the base. You can cut at any of the blue lines and expect new buds to start growing from some of the needles, usually just below the cut. Pine needles usually only live for 3 years in my area. After that they are worn out and don't photosynthesize properly any more so the tree cuts off supply and they turn yellow and drop off usually in summer. This means if you are planning to prune hard do it before the older needles drop off at around 3 years. Pines can be allowed to grow freely for 3 years before pruning.

Note the bare 'neck' on the previous year's growth. It is normal for strong shoots to have no needles at the base. usually the stronger they grow the more bare there is. No needles = no dormant buds so if you prune in this bare section it will just die back to the nearest lateral shoots or healthy needles. Pruning at the base of the bare section will not usually stimulate new buds. The tree will just divert resources to those 2 lateral shoots and they will start to grow stronger. Pruning here is good for taper and making natural looking bends in the trunk line.

The oldest part of this tree still has healthy needles at nearly 3 years old. It is possible to cut right down there and expect to get buds from those needles. In another year those needles will have dropped and you've lost the chance if you were intending a hard cut back.

These are options for developing trees. To put on trunk diameter and influence trunk shape and bends.
Managing an older tree for refinement is a whole other ball game and uses quite different techniques.
 

Tieball

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a picture is worth a few words so maybe this visual will help.
View attachment 279968

Decandling is when we cut at the black line. New buds will form from the base of the cut shoots but not usually from the needles below.

Healthy pine needles have dormant buds at the base. You can cut at any of the blue lines and expect new buds to start growing from some of the needles, usually just below the cut. Pine needles usually only live for 3 years in my area. After that they are worn out and don't photosynthesize properly any more so the tree cuts off supply and they turn yellow and drop off usually in summer. This means if you are planning to prune hard do it before the older needles drop off at around 3 years. Pines can be allowed to grow freely for 3 years before pruning.

Note the bare 'neck' on the previous year's growth. It is normal for strong shoots to have no needles at the base. usually the stronger they grow the more bare there is. No needles = no dormant buds so if you prune in this bare section it will just die back to the nearest lateral shoots or healthy needles. Pruning at the base of the bare section will not usually stimulate new buds. The tree will just divert resources to those 2 lateral shoots and they will start to grow stronger. Pruning here is good for taper and making natural looking bends in the trunk line.

The oldest part of this tree still has healthy needles at nearly 3 years old. It is possible to cut right down there and expect to get buds from those needles. In another year those needles will have dropped and you've lost the chance if you were intending a hard cut back.

These are options for developing trees. To put on trunk diameter and influence trunk shape and bends.
Managing an older tree for refinement is a whole other ball game and uses quite different techniques.
This is very helpful. Thanks for drawing it up and adding the explanations....your photo explains it well. Mighty fine!
 

Forsoothe!

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Everyone knows that Vance Wood is some kind of plucker. Show-stoppers don't grow on trees, you have to work on a tree night & day that's otherwise ready to be plucked. Here's one that put that plucker in the hospital for multiple fingertip transplants...
280062
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Everyone knows that Vance Wood is some kind of plucker. Show-stoppers don't grow on trees, you have to work on a tree night & day that's otherwise ready to be plucked. Here's one that put that plucker in the hospital for multiple fingertip transplants...
That’s not even a pine.
 

Forsoothe!

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Soorrrrry...
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Cyril Grum, Ann Arbor Bonsai Society show, 2019. Refinement!
 

Adair M

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For most trees in the development stage, cutting back properly is more important than needle pulling. Needle pulling is a refinement and balancing technique used for more refined trees, and most of us don’t have highly refined trees.

I found a few diagrams on how to properly cut back pines:

6C35B679-4198-45AE-93A1-CDC5A763F2C9.jpeg

5F16F9AE-5CF7-40CD-B8C6-406F0AF6914A.jpeg

84DF582D-7DCD-4821-AAEA-FA08CC0D5BF9.jpeg

D721703F-A1D6-4568-913F-8AD25B3AFFF9.jpeg

And this last diagram is a showing how to use SELECTIVE needle pulling on young developing trees. The idea here is to leave needles where you might like to have needle buds pop, but remove needles where you don’t want them:

DE5B5DF3-6969-4EAF-ADDC-E937E245A772.jpeg
 

AndyJ

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For most trees in the development stage, cutting back properly is more important than needle pulling. Needle pulling is a refinement and balancing technique used for more refined trees, and most of us don’t have highly refined trees.

I found a few diagrams on how to properly cut back pines:

View attachment 280085

View attachment 280086

View attachment 280087

View attachment 280088

And this last diagram is a showing how to use SELECTIVE needle pulling on young developing trees. The idea here is to leave needles where you might like to have needle buds pop, but remove needles where you don’t want them:

View attachment 280089

This is brilliant Adair! Thank you so much for finding these and posting them - I think I’ll print them off and pin them up in my shed!

I’m guessing these mainly relate to JBP? Are the techniques transferrable to other pines? Excluding the obvious differences between single flush and twin flush pines that is
 

Adair M

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Cutting back is pretty much universal for pines.

JBP are really strong growers, and needle pulling helps slow them down. Again, it’s primarily a refinement thing.

The key thing with pines is to retain foliage close to the trunk. As the branches grow, the foliage will get farther and farther away from the trunk, and the tree will become “hollow”, that is, there’s an outer perimeter of green foliage and an empty void inside.

To keep this from happening, the branches need to be developed into pads, with interior branchlets that can still get some sun exposure. And as the primary branch grows out too long, it gets cut back, and one of the branchlets gets positioned to take its place. All the while developing even more interior branches for the future.

This is really the heart and soul of bonsai. Continuing refinement and development to maintain the tree for decades.
 

Adair M

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This is brilliant Adair! Thank you so much for finding these and posting them - I think I’ll print them off and pin them up in my shed!

I’m guessing these mainly relate to JBP? Are the techniques transferrable to other pines? Excluding the obvious differences between single flush and twin flush pines that is
Andy, these are just a few I received from Boon at his Intensive classes.
 
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