New growth, wrong place

[ConorDash]

Here's a question...

I have found on an Acer Palmatum, that new growth is emerging from the base of branches (not on the branch itself), that were pruned back. But not on the pruned back branch itself.

So, scenario is you've let the tree grow out, you've cut back most or all to 2 pairs of leaves. The next flush, you'd expect from emerge from those 2 pairs, but they have not. Its grown from the base of the branch itself, creating a new branch.

Here's an illustration from paint:


Some of the branches are dying back, most aren't, they are just barely holding on, with their original leaves in bad condition but not fallen yet. Any idea why its not grown from the buds, and instead started new growth?

 

[BobbyLane]

crotch growth....unwanted crotch growth

if you dont want them. if they are not part of your design plan you remove adventitious buds.
we discussed it

 

[BobbyLane]

Developing Deciduous Bonsai Branch Structures: Part 1 – Bonsai4Me

bonsai4me.com

 

[clem]

Some of the branches are dying back, most aren't, they are just barely holding on, with their original leaves in bad condition but not fallen yet. Any idea why its not grown from the buds, and instead started new growth?

Can you show some pics of your tree and branches dying ? it would be helpfull to check its health, where it grows, which branche die etc

 

[ConorDash]

crotch growth....unwanted crotch growth

if you dont want them. if they are not part of your design plan you remove adventitious buds.
we discussed it

Not quite the question mate.
I know what it is and all, thats fine + the tree is suffering so I am happy for any growth, ill remove it later.

Question is, why has it ONLY grown at crotches and not activated buds on the branches that were cut

Can you show some pics of your tree and branches dying ? it would be helpfull to check its health, where it grows, which branche die etc

Sure, tbh I was reframing from posting any more pics of Maples on here, even I'm sick of it, can't imagine what people think!! Will do shortly.

 

[Shibui]

JM would normally grow from the buds on the branches. I can only assume that for some reason the branches are not viable - infection from pruning? Sunburn?
Can't say that I have seen this before but you can certainly keep it if it is some sort of problem.

 

[ConorDash]

Can you show some pics of your tree and branches dying ? it would be helpfull to check its health, where it grows, which branche die etc

Painted over to make more clear.. so the tree had watering problems, wasn't watered enough and its old foliage went bad, as you can see by a few old leaves. But it looks like it was bad enough to affect the branches too, as they are dying back. Thing is, the large thick branches you can see, are the sacrifice, primary branches and they were full of green, completely happy before pruning. Be aware, on most, I left an amount of wood when pruning, to prepare for dieback.





Looking at my own images, it seems whatever problem the leaves developed, they have affected the branches too and are dying back, which seems to be why the buds didn't activate.
The tree has still made progress this year but less so due to this now. I had developed the large primaries and some secondaries, and working on some tertiaries. Due to this, I think I am back to main primaries and a secondaries.

Aside from that, the leaves all look great. There are a lot in bad places, need wiring etc etc, but I think I will leave for now. It needs to recover, I want all foliage available to help.

 

[Shibui]

As you have spotted those branches have died back for some reason. possibly the previous problem, possibly infection after pruning.
Building ramification is a pain but some of those branches had quite long internodes. Not really good structure for bonsai branches. Hope that some of the new shoots have shorter internodes and use those to replace failed branching. The eventual tree will be so much better for it.

 

[NaoTK]

If you remove too many leaves, the tree will go into shock and discard outer branches in favor of inner crotch growth. That appears to be what is happening here.
There is a great example on page 212 of Meriggioli's "Bonsai Maples" book, which I highly recommend even considering the high cost.

 

[fredman]

Question is, why has it ONLY grown at crotches and not activated buds on the branches that were cut

I think you guessed it by now. It grows in the crouches, because that's the only places left with some vigor. The branches lost it's vigor through some or other reason.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Long, skinny, straight branches are a big waste of time. So are dozens of buds in all the wrong places. Your job is to shortcut the random or typical growth and re-direct it to where you want growth. You should have an Xacto knife and slice off buds that appear where you don't want them as soon as you see them. You should tip prune any twig when it threatens to exceed some imaginary boundary line, or any twig that has an internode that threatens to exceed your size limits. Mr. Miagi said, "Remove anything that isn't bonsai, and everything that is left is bonsai." Don't waste your time or the tree's resources by letting something grow that you do not want, or want where it is growing.

Guiding bonsai growth is like herding cows. They head in the wrong direction and you get in front of them and bark, they change direction. When they go in the right direction, you let them.

 

[sorce]

Pal, mate, um......

Where you trying to kill it?
Lol!

This was like going to visit an old person with no mask, AND cutting them while you were there!

Sorce

 

[ConorDash]

Long, skinny, straight branches are a big waste of time. So are dozens of buds in all the wrong places. Your job is to shortcut the random or typical growth and re-direct it to where you want growth. You should have an Xacto knife and slice off buds that appear where you don't want them as soon as you see them. You should tip prune any twig when it threatens to exceed some imaginary boundary line, or any twig that has an internode that threatens to exceed your size limits. Mr. Miagi said, "Remove anything that isn't bonsai, and everything that is left is bonsai." Don't waste your time or the tree's resources by letting something grow that you do not want, or want where it is growing.

Guiding bonsai growth is like herding cows. They head in the wrong direction and you get in front of them and bark, they change direction. When they go in the right direction, you let them.

Thanks. The branches weren't that bad, but difficult to see in this pic as its becoming bushy. I understand your points. My problem is, the tree is obviously suffering from some bad health.. the balance and question I've asked myself and others so often is, at what point do you allow growth (even growth you aren't going to use) to allow the tree to recover, and what point do you remove it because its not needed?
The tree clearly needs health, so removing those branches that are bad (due to this burst of growth in bad places, there is a lot), would surely not help that?

Also, it looks like Ill have to use some of those new shoots, as branches, due to others dying back. They should hopefully be pliable enough in Autumn, to wire..

 

[ConorDash]

As you have spotted those branches have died back for some reason. possibly the previous problem, possibly infection after pruning.
Building ramification is a pain but some of those branches had quite long internodes. Not really good structure for bonsai branches. Hope that some of the new shoots have shorter internodes and use those to replace failed branching. The eventual tree will be so much better for it.

Thanks, thats a positive outcome . Im ok with this, its new growth is clearly doing well, so thats a big positive. I hope in autumn, these new shoots will be pliable enough to remove whats not needed, wire new branches to take over for those that died back.

Pal, mate, um......

Where you trying to kill it?
Lol!

This was like going to visit an old person with no mask, AND cutting them while you were there!

Sorce

The tree was healthier before the cut, you saw the pics in other thread, huge sacrifice branches will masses of good foliage.. it was cutting them, then remainder of foliage got bad at same time, leading to a large failure..

If you remove too many leaves, the tree will go into shock and discard outer branches in favor of inner crotch growth. That appears to be what is happening here.
There is a great example on page 212 of Meriggioli's "Bonsai Maples" book, which I highly recommend even considering the high cost.

This is really interesting, it makes sense when you say it out loud but without saying it, I wouldnt think of it.. yes this seems like what happened. Bad luck with health at a bad time. But my watering is largely to blame, was a big mistake which has essentially ruined the year.
But the tree has made development steps forward, its not gone backwards from before this year, so its a positive. Thanks for info