New Spruce Project

[cpt]

this will be one of the more advanced pieces ill be taking on over the next few years, hope it works out.
I've read and heard that these lil Christmas trees are quite sensitive and at times short lived. I have only seen a handful of achieve bonsai with this conifer material.
So the challenge for me is to have patience and stick to the projected guidelines for establishing this dwarf spruce to a slant bonsai with naturalist appeal.

first stage: repot with medium styling, no pruning.
second stage: more aggressive styling and pruning.
third stage: free growth
fourth stage: repot and create deadwood
fifth stage: probably close to final styling, pruning, and detailing
sixth stage: repot to rugged stone slab base to achieve wild weathered appearance
seventh stage: enjoy!!!

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[JudyB]

What type of Spruce, is it Alberta? They are fun to work, and can turn out nice. They will teach you how to wire that is for sure!!! Your projected final look is pretty cool looking.

 

[GrimLore]

If it is an Alberta they normally die when brought inside for a few weeks during the Christmas Season and put back outdoors. Looks like yours is off to a much better start and as Judy said should be fun!

Grimmy

 

[cpt]

where I live the winters are pretty mind, it will be living outside year round. I have high hopes for the little guy, and am pretty excited to get started on it.

a local bonsai club is doing a repotting session, so I aim to learn quite a lot in the few hours everybody will be interacting.

Yes its a "dwarf Alberta spruce" so says its tag anyway

I will be updating within a week or so with the first stage of progress.

 

[JudyB]

Have you by chance seen the progression on an Alberta spruce forest by Harry Harrington? Good read if not, check it out at bonsai4me on the web.

 

[RKatzin]

These are another understated tree and like rattlers have an undeserved bad reputation. The problem with those, 'lil xmas' trees is the profusion of spokes at each whorl and no interior foliage to speak of. You have to work these down to two or three and then one or two. The resulting buldge takes some time to grow out and being dwarfs it's a slow process. Obey the one third rule and they keep chuggin' along pretty well.

They do backbud well in the full sun once you open the limbs to get the sun in deep. They do like full sun, right next to the mugos.

I always like to see folks tackle this tree and very curious to follow your progress, because I have also seen some nice results come of dedicated service to this tree.

I apologize, as I do not know you and your level of expertise* and I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but I have a love for this tree and wish the best to your project. There's not alot said on these in books so I'm always looking to bone up on one of my favorites. Thanks for sharing, sincerly, Rick

* you never know when you're talking to the grand viser of bonsai who I certainly am not worthy to spitshine the shoes of.

 

[cpt]

Have you by chance seen the progression on an Alberta spruce forest by Harry Harrington? Good read if not, check it out at bonsai4me on the web.

I have obsessively been through mostly all the articles in Bonsai4me, love the reading and insight offered, definitely one of my favorite tutorial site out there!!!

 

[cpt]

These are another understated tree and like rattlers have an undeserved bad reputation. The problem with those, 'lil xmas' trees is the profusion of spokes at each whorl and no interior foliage to speak of. You have to work these down to two or three and then one or two. The resulting buldge takes some time to grow out and being dwarfs it's a slow process. Obey the one third rule and they keep chuggin' along pretty well.

They do backbud well in the full sun once you open the limbs to get the sun in deep. They do like full sun, right next to the mugos.

I always like to see folks tackle this tree and very curious to follow your progress, because I have also seen some nice results come of dedicated service to this tree.

I apologize, as I do not know you and your level of expertise* and I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but I have a love for this tree and wish the best to your project. There's not alot said on these in books so I'm always looking to bone up on one of my favorites. Thanks for sharing, sincerly, Rick

* you never know when you're talking to the grand viser of bonsai who I certainly am not worthy to spitshine the shoes of.

I have been working with 7-6 through 4 zones of plants and trees since I was little with my grandfather, he had a small home nursery with a decent variety. I am still very far from expert.

I know this tree is still 5-10 years out from the final form and I am ready and willing for the challenge. I appreciate you input and hope to provide some solid story for the life of this tree.

 

[october]

What does the base of the trunk look like? If it is not nearly that size or does not have good nebari, it will take many years to get it to look like that. I am not trying to discourage you. I just wanted to make sure that you are aware that growing a nice trunk like that could be another 15 plus years.

Also, all the stages you descibed are fine. However, it is more important to adhere to time frames. Repotting is done in Spring. New growth pinching and cutting is done after the growth extends a bit, but before it hardens off. Lastly, wiring and major styling is usually done in fall.

You can get this tree on its way in 2 seasons. If it is in good soil, the you can do the styling one season and the next season repot. If the soil is not so good, you can repot one season and style he next. In the long run, it might be better to do it this way, in 2 stages. Then just work with the tree as the years go on. All future work based on your initial styling.

I hope this was helpful.

Rob

 

[cpt]

thanks for your insight, I am potentially planning yearly staging, on this tree with the exception of maybe giving it a few years free growth within several stages. main goal is to get it established into a nice sized training pot and worry about wiring later the next year. as for the trunk it has decent size but will definitely require many more years of growth to achieve the desired result.

 

[fourteener]

I think you could do some modest pruning, when you see that it has recovered from the repot.

Branches that are too low, whorls could be thinned, last years's 2-3 inch extension could be cut off.

All of that depends on one thing...how lively all the new growth is. Sometimes a repot brings a tree to life and you can work more. Sometimes it is a major setback and you should leave it alone. Plans are nice...but plans change.

Being aware, attentive, flexible...this is what makes a good bonsai artist.

 

[RKatzin]

I have one DAS that I've had for close to ten years. It was one of my first, when I didn't know what I was doing. I'm not implying that I do now, I'm learning and this tree has been one of my instructors.

From my experience and everything I've read these are very slow growers. I did not see any increase in trunk size until I removed the tree from the training pot and set it out in the garden to develop.

The first two are '08-'09 and it stayed just like that until I planted it out in 2011. It was always healthy, but not robust and to get any increase the growth must be robust. The last pic are recent after three yrs in the ground, full sun most of the day and generously fed.

This was/is a crap tree and I'm trying to make a silk purse out of sows ear. Fifteen shoots at every whorl, swollen nodes all the way up the trunk. I am trying to get it back to one limb per and get the trunk to even out the bulges and this was absolutely not happening in a training pot, which it never should have been in to begin with.

Once the tree was established I began removing 1/3 of the limbs per season, taking all the larger limbs and trying to leave limbs with a downward angle. Now that I have the limbs reduced to a good amount, I'm taking 1/3 off from the branches I leave, removing the upward growing stems to plane in the branches and to keep the light coming into the interior. Backbudding is generous if you keep the light on.

I'm also trying some fiber breaking to get branches to bend. I roll a stem gently between my fingers until I feel the bark seperate. My thinking is that the branch will callous inside and hold the branch.

I have a dozen set out that I intend to do some trunk chops on once they fatten up some more. These are much better stock to begin with as they had not been sheared into tiny xmas trees and were more open with much less branching at the whorls, which is the biggest thing to overcome.

I've been feeling my way in the dark here and I'm so glad anytime I see anything on the Dwarf Alberta. It's usually not from more experienced folks. More like me trying to get a leg up and the general consensus seems to be 'give it up'. I really appreciate your post and hope we can continue as our trees progress. Sincerly, Rick

 

[twisted trees]

One think to keep in mind with this species is that the branches really want to grow upwards. It will take years of wiring to get them to stay down. You wire. Take it off after a few months and they go right back to where they were. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire. Repeat. Wire.

All the new growth wants to rise as well. It's impressive when it all stays down but it's a labor of love. You may want to reconsider your original concepts or use a more suitable species to achieve those images.

 

[cpt]

thanks, that's an awesome progression, it is easy to see the distinct difference in size and vigor after transplanting.
the little specimen I have will be potted this weekend with the local bonsai club, im hoping to learn and experience from other peoples experiences to set me on the proper path. I am interested to see how and if this tree bounces back from the first potting, from there I can assess what direction to take. thanks again, hope to provide some more on the development of this tree soon

 

[RKatzin]

Looking forward to your progress as well, cpt. For me it's been the tree you can't kill* and every repot has shown very good response.

TwistedTrees: I've heard this same lament over and over and that is why I'm going with a clip and grow much the same you would for a Japanese Maple. They do as spruce do and want to grow in that upward pose. I just keep cutting the ups and encourage the down. I will show some branches I've been training, I know you want to see pics. I did a bit of wiring on a branch and left it on until it bit into the bark and it has stayed. That's what got me onto the scarring line of thinking. On my field trees I'm going to try a combination of both, by laying a slice on the bottom side and then wire and see if the scar tissue will hold the bend. I welcome your thoughts.

*Except those darn little xmas trees they make these into. I've tried to revive a few after the season, but nary a one has survived that treatment.

 

[jkd2572]

this will be one of the more advanced pieces ill be taking on over the next few years, hope it works out.
I've read and heard that these lil Christmas trees are quite sensitive and at times short lived. I have only seen a handful of achieve bonsai with this conifer material.
So the challenge for me is to have patience and stick to the projected guidelines for establishing this dwarf spruce to a slant bonsai with naturalist appeal.

first stage: repot with medium styling, no pruning.
second stage: more aggressive styling and pruning.
third stage: free growth
fourth stage: repot and create deadwood
fifth stage: probably close to final styling, pruning, and detailing
sixth stage: repot to rugged stone slab base to achieve wild weathered appearance
seventh stage: enjoy!!!

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If the base actually looks like your drawing you should go back and buy 20 more....

 

[RKatzin]

Yes sir! They would be likely six to eight footers growing in someones front yard. I see them around town here there's a few nice big trees.

I will have to take a look at my trunks to give you an idea of annual growth. They were roughly an inch at the base in 2011 when they were set out. The one in the training pot I believe I first got in '06 and kept in a pot until '11 showed no noticable trunk increase during that period. It stayed healthy, but it stayed the same. I'll take a reading on it tomorrow, too. It was also about an inch when I set it out.

Is the seven to one rule still in use? One year in the ground equals seven in a pot.? I'm sure that this tree exceeds that ratio, more like a ten or fifteen to one. In a few years in the garden it is taller and fatter and pushing new growth like a weed! Pics tomorrow.

 

[cpt]

ha I wish the base of the trunk had a shape like that final projected image, alas its only sitting at 2 1/4 inch diameter which isn't too bad and I also don't know how it looks under the soil in that nursery pot. im optimistic that there will be a more appealing surprise underneath it all.

I was out yesterday evening examining what I had to work with. there is quite a bit of juvenile growth off the main trunk deep within the more mature branches. I am also pretty pleased with the size of a few lager branches which will be selectively enhanced throughout this project to provide that final apex shape off the main tapered form.

 

[jkd2572]

I was just kidding. Very impressed with your ability to do victuals. Nice job.

 

[cpt]

ok so after consulting with a few of the members from the local bonsai club they recommended I start my initial styling and pruning to see how the tree reacts, and possibly worry about repotting next year and allowing free growth for a year.

we did weighed 2 options; (1)repotting and waiting to see how he tree recovers (if at all) then styling the fallowing season or fallowing year (2)pruning and styling waiting to see how he tree recovers (if at all) then repot next year

what are our thoughts on these processes?