New starter materials

[Driver170]

The first two picture is a Pinus sylvestris "nana"

And the last two is a Pinus sylvestris beauvronensis

What you guys think

 

[Driver170]

Guys got a question. When i've selected my final branches at the bottom that i'll be keeping, how do i encourage more back budding and can i still reduce the current and older needles?

 

[M. Frary]

The current needles will stay that length until they drop off.
To encourage back budding cut this year's shoots back .

 

[Driver170]

Ok i'll do that late summer (august in UK)

Do you think these trees have great potential?

It took me ages to select the best ones that i think will make great Bonsai material in years to come.

I just love the flakey bark on it

 

[Driver170]

Ryan neil mentions you don't prune to get back budding its the traffic of resources through the branches!?

 

[sorce]

That sap flow creates them....

The cut will trigger them to grow.

Imagine....
If you never cut the outside...
That same sap flow will end up shading those buds again and killing them off.

Balance!

Sorce

 

[Driver170]

Should i start to wire these branches down thats what I'm thinking that needs done now?

 

[M. Frary]

Ryan neil mentions you don't prune to get back budding

Who's Ryan Neil?

Should i start to wire these branches down thats what I'm thinking that needs done now?

If it were mine I would let it sit until spring next year before I did anything to it.
You need to learn the basic care first.
Just keeping a tree alive in a bucket for a year is an accomplishment in itself.
What does this Ryan Neil say?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Should i start to wire these branches down thats what I'm thinking that needs done now?

You can wire now, but better to wait until fall. What you really need is a full year under your belt. You need to see the effects of your techniques, and then all of this (how pines grow and respond to pruning) will become clear to you.

I don't promote it too much, but in my sig file, you will find a link to my JPB book. It is really a time-lapse photo album of developing a pine into a decent bonsai. Almost all of the 124 photos were taken of one tree sitting in the same spot over the course of 8 years. It allows you to see technique applied, and the tree's response. Buy it or don't, but at least look at the preview to help you accelerate your learning curve; that's why I wrote the book.

If you're committed to watching Ryan's videos, I'd suggest you really seek to understand what he is teaching.

BTW that Scots pine has really nice bark. I would be tempted to use as much of the tree as you can in this case. Tall and thin isn't a bad way to go. I'll look for an example.

 

[Driver170]

Yeh fall is the appropriate time for sure. Looked at your preview looks good even though JBP is multi flush and scots pine is single flush the principles are about the same?

I do understand what Ryan is talking about most of the time, i just need to watch over his videos a few times to make it sink in.

Yeh thats why i bought these as i loved the bark
on it. They all have good branching (i think) i just need to find a good design.

Do you require more photos?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

For JBP letting things grow will produce backbudding. For sylvestris you need to cut back after the tree has accumulated energy. For sylvestris in refinement you start pinching to let the backbudding that is present develop. Keep in mind that most videos of Ryan do start explaining after primary branches are established. With pines like this i would cut useless (too many on a fork) branches in fall. Select as many primary branches as possible (keep all options open, don't style directly to a front). Style everything open and add movement. Leave equal amount (or close to +-20) needles above and below. Do a half bare root repot in spring. In summer cut back the strongest shoots (+- 20%). In fall do a second styling, leave equal amount of new needles (+-15). If strong growing spring can be a next repot. Most often waiting a year longer is better. Build the structure first, add movement, grow the lower ones bigger than the higher ones. On slender trunks like this, most often you will end with a literati styled tree. Cut back one or two branches per year and let the image settle in your mind for a year. This way you grow together with your tree. 2, 3 or 4 branches might be enough. Cutting back right away to a more final image will weaken your tree and slow down the development.

 

[Paradox]

The other thing you need to keep in mind when watching videos or reading books is what species the author is talking about.

Brain Van Fleet's book is excellent (I own a copy) for Japanese Black Pines. Ryan Neil often talks about JBP.
Japanese black pine is a two flush pine - they can produce new buds and needles 2x a year.

What you have is a scots pine and they are not treated the same as JBP because they are a one flush pine.
You need to be very careful of this. If you treat a scots like JBP you will very likely kill it.

Let it grow this year, wire it this fall (any time between mid Oct - January is fine) and read up on Scots and Mugo pines (they are treated the same)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Yeh fall is the appropriate time for sure. Looked at your preview looks good even though JBP is multi flush and scots pine is single flush the principles are about the same?

All pines grow the same way, just not at the same speed. All pines have/grow like this:
1. Buds which elongate in the spring (candles)
2. Candles which are topped with a bud(s) for next spring
3. Needles which emerge along the candle until mid summer
4. Needles that harden off in mid-summer
5. Time to "rest" from fall until dormancy: develop some additional buds, slough off 2-3 year old needles.

Unless something happens...which is our part. We can intervene in a number of ways at each step (numbers below correlate to those above) to get a response:

1. We can reduce the number of buds until we have the desired number, or all the same size of buds. Balancing.
2. As candles extend, we can break them so they are shorter. Then the buds for next year form at the break, or at the base. Breaking the candles so they're all the same length balances the strength of the tree, and shortens the physical distance between this year's buds and next year's buds. Keeps it from getting leggy.
3. Strong areas can have needles removed, so all areas have roughly the same density. Balance.
4. In JBP, this is when these candles are removed entirely, and a new set of candles will grow from the base. If you do this with 1-flush pines, it will weaken the tree, but you will get buds at the base which will grow next year. Don't do it.
5. During the resting phase, prune and wire, remove old needles, and select buds (balance). When pruning, always remove the growth that is farthest from the trunk and replace it with growth that is closer to the trunk. You always need to have a plan to develop new shoots to replace old growth. More than artistic styling, fan out shoots to give them each some space in the sunlight (balance).

 

[Driver170]

The other thing you need to keep in mind when watching videos or reading books is what species the author is talking about.

Brain Van Fleet's book is excellent (I own a copy) for Japanese Black Pines. Ryan Neil often talks about JBP.
Japanese black pine is a two flush pine - they can produce new buds and needles 2x a year.

What you have is a scots pine and they are not treated the same as JBP because they are a one flush pine.
You need to be very careful of this. If you treat a scots like JBP you will very likely kill it.

Let it grow this year, wire it this fall (any time between mid Oct - January is fine) and read up on Scots and Mugo pines (they are treated the same)

Yep i knew that but thankyou for the heads up!

Have you been on this site -

http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Pinus page2.html

This guy is also brilliant Harry Harrington from the UK, London. Very good read aswel it explains, multi flush and single flush pines.

 

[Paradox]

Yep i knew that but thankyou for the heads up!

Have you been on this site -

http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Pinus page2.html

This guy is also brilliant Harry Harrington from the UK, London. Very good read aswel it explains, multi flush and single flush pines.

Not everyone realizes that pines can not all be treated the same. Its a very common mistake when it comes to pines.
Yes I have seen that website. It is very good, but often lacks some of the more advanced detail needed.

 

[Driver170]

All pines grow the same way, just not at the same speed. All pines have/grow like this:
1. Buds which elongate in the spring (candles)
2. Candles which are topped with a bud(s) for next spring
3. Needles which emerge along the candle until mid summer
4. Needles that harden off in mid-summer
5. Time to "rest" from fall until dormancy: develop some additional buds, slough off 2-3 year old needles.

Unless something happens...which is our part. We can intervene in a number of ways at each step (numbers below correlate to those above) to get a response:

1. We can reduce the number of buds until we have the desired number, or all the same size of buds. Balancing.
2. As candles extend, we can break them so they are shorter. Then the buds for next year form at the break, or at the base. Breaking the candles so they're all the same length balances the strength of the tree, and shortens the physical distance between this year's buds and next year's buds. Keeps it from getting leggy.
3. Strong areas can have needles removed, so all areas have roughly the same density. Balance.
4. In JBP, this is when these candles are removed entirely, and a new set of candles will grow from the base. If you do this with 1-flush pines, it will weaken the tree, but you will get buds at the base which will grow next year. Don't do it.
5. During the resting phase, prune and wire, remove old needles, and select buds (balance). When pruning, always remove the growth that is farthest from the trunk and replace it with growth that is closer to the trunk. You always need to have a plan to develop new shoots to replace old growth. More than artistic styling, fan out shoots to give them each some space in the sunlight (balance).

Very good piece of knowledge thanks! I like those links and i'll check your blogg out.

 

[Driver170]

For JBP letting things grow will produce backbudding. For sylvestris you need to cut back after the tree has accumulated energy. For sylvestris in refinement you start pinching to let the backbudding that is present develop. Keep in mind that most videos of Ryan do start explaining after primary branches are established. With pines like this i would cut useless (too many on a fork) branches in fall. Select as many primary branches as possible (keep all options open, don't style directly to a front). Style everything open and add movement. Leave equal amount (or close to +-20) needles above and below. Do a half bare root repot in spring. In summer cut back the strongest shoots (+- 20%). In fall do a second styling, leave equal amount of new needles (+-15). If strong growing spring can be a next repot. Most often waiting a year longer is better. Build the structure first, add movement, grow the lower ones bigger than the higher ones. On slender trunks like this, most often you will end with a literati styled tree. Cut back one or two branches per year and let the image settle in your mind for a year. This way you grow together with your tree. 2, 3 or 4 branches might be enough. Cutting back right away to a more final image will weaken your tree and slow down the development.

Very good I understand that. So basically go slow!

My first job this year will be wire the branches straight

 

[Driver170]

This story is interesting

http://www.why-bonsai.com/bonsai_history_scots_pine2.html

In the end he had to plant it into the ground to bring it on...

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Very good I understand that. So basically go slow!

My first job this year will be wire the branches straight

Not straight. Add movement.

 

[Vance Wood]

Ryan neil mentions you don't prune to get back budding its the traffic of resources through the branches!?

What????"??""??"?"?? Are you sure you understand what he has said to you?