Driver170
Shohin
Hi vance i assum thats what he was saying?
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This is what you wrote that personally to me made no sense: Ryan neil mentions you don't prune to get back budding its the traffic of resources through the branches!? Did he explain this comment further in your mind. The truth is very often we prune in order to get back budding. The fact that pruning carefully performed at the right time is one of the only ways you can get back budding especially with Scots Pines.
Driver170
Shohin
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
This is the theory i've learned. I'm not that far evolved in BLACK pines that i can state it with practical evidence. But i've let a neglected black pine grow for a year and he gave me tons of backbudding. In another video Ryan is really clear about this.
For JBP the accumulation of power will pop backbudding on old wood. This is an approach you can do as long as the tree can grow since doing this for several years will give you branches that are too thick. When you start decandling, the tree will give you buds at the cut site and will give you backbudding whenever the tree is strong enough. When the tree is slowing down backbudding further back will be slowed down. The tree needs its resources to sustain the current foliage.
Scots and mugo pine are a different species. When you start up a scots pine for example, the better care and feeding (hopefully) and allowing light and air in the tree (plucking needles) will generate backbudding automatically (on wood of a few years back). You don't need to cut back. BUT after that initial portion of backbudding the tree will invest most of its resources in the terminal growth and backbudding will stop and growth will get leggy. If you want scots pine to bud back, you let it grow until needles are unfolded and has recuperated energy. You see a big terminal bud sitting there to elongate next year. Depending on how many backbuds you want, you wait longer (lots of power, so lots of backbuds) or shorter (less power, so less backbuds). In the beginning of development you wait until july / august. At the end of that stage you can prune in june. At that time you cut back IN THIS YEARS growth. Always leaving at least 4 pairs of new needles. Buds that will open next year will form at the place where you cut AND you will have backbudding. If you don't cut back scots pine at this stage, backbudding will stop. That is the reason (i think) Vance is not cool with the statement that letting things grow will induce backbudding. If you stay with this technique for a few years, you will have a pine with lots of backbudding BUT big part of these will only sit there and wait. Some will grow. If you want them to develop you need to pinch. That's a different story.
For JBP the accumulation of power will pop backbudding on old wood. This is an approach you can do as long as the tree can grow since doing this for several years will give you branches that are too thick. When you start decandling, the tree will give you buds at the cut site and will give you backbudding whenever the tree is strong enough. When the tree is slowing down backbudding further back will be slowed down. The tree needs its resources to sustain the current foliage.
Scots and mugo pine are a different species. When you start up a scots pine for example, the better care and feeding (hopefully) and allowing light and air in the tree (plucking needles) will generate backbudding automatically (on wood of a few years back). You don't need to cut back. BUT after that initial portion of backbudding the tree will invest most of its resources in the terminal growth and backbudding will stop and growth will get leggy. If you want scots pine to bud back, you let it grow until needles are unfolded and has recuperated energy. You see a big terminal bud sitting there to elongate next year. Depending on how many backbuds you want, you wait longer (lots of power, so lots of backbuds) or shorter (less power, so less backbuds). In the beginning of development you wait until july / august. At the end of that stage you can prune in june. At that time you cut back IN THIS YEARS growth. Always leaving at least 4 pairs of new needles. Buds that will open next year will form at the place where you cut AND you will have backbudding. If you don't cut back scots pine at this stage, backbudding will stop. That is the reason (i think) Vance is not cool with the statement that letting things grow will induce backbudding. If you stay with this technique for a few years, you will have a pine with lots of backbudding BUT big part of these will only sit there and wait. Some will grow. If you want them to develop you need to pinch. That's a different story.
Driver170
Shohin
So i'm best at this stage to let my trees to grow freely for a few years but in the process to wire and repot?
Driver170
Shohin
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Select primary branches and wire them in place. Leave all possibilities. Repot in good medium (hbr). Pluck needles to balance the tree. Further aid with balance by pruning the most vigorous shoots in late spring. After that you should have a balanced good growing pine. Let grow and cut back for a few years. Keep wiring secondary branches flat so tertiary branches can form the pad. That's the way how i understand it. There might be other ways.
Driver170
Shohin
Watching Ryan neils archive video "pinching to design" and if you are in the development phase you prune once the new growth has hardened off and prune back to some new growth to encourage back budding.
So vance is correct on his statement!
So vance is correct on his statement!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Go figure?
Driver170
Shohin
Something that has to wait until next year!
He also mentions this which is great -
Pinching to redirect strength (strong,medium,weak)
Pruning to redirect priority
(from the tip to the interior)
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I guess it is important if it makes sense to you. I suppose if I take a look at the video it may make sense to me as well but right now I am not sure what you are talking about. This seems to be the case with some of the newer things coming out lately.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Unless wanting semi expensive pot is no great deal. Mainly skinny trunk
. And bar branches.
Driver170
Shohin
Unless wanting semi expensive pot is no great deal. Mainly skinny trunk
Doesn't look too bad
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Without the intention of creating the fire storm sure to follow some of you guys are doing the same thing here that many of you and many newbies have made for several years now. You watch these wonderful videos by Ryan Neil and others, where they describe these wonderful, sexy techniques that get a Pine to do what you want it to do but; you don't remember, or care to take into account, that there is a difference between developmental and refinement techniques. You want to jump right to the refinement techniques and totally ignore the development techniques that are different enough to cause you a problem. If you start refining a tree that is not developed you will refine an undeveloped piece of stock and slow it way down before it is ready, or at a point where you would like to refine it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This has been my problem with these "Pinching, Clipping and chewing off with extreme prejudice techniques", that have been introduced into the bonsai community over the last several of years. A number of years back, people were obsessing with balancing growth and making needles on Balck Pines smaller. This is not a bad endeavor but it is in many ways likened to putting high quality paint onto a wall without using a primer. No body wants to do what is necessary to develop a tree they want to use these advanced techniques for making needles small etc on trees that are actually set back developmentally by using these methods before the tree is ready for them.
I have seen good Junipers ruined by this passionate and almost prejudicial claim that you don't pinch Junipers, you clip them. That of course is a thread for another post I suppose.
The point being; if you are going to hang your coat on a particular principal there are two things to remember: One, that the tree is ready for the technique and two, are you using the right technique for the right tree.
It has only been recently that many of these masters teaching this stuff, have pointed out that there is a difference between the techniques used on JBPs and JRP's, two needle Pine with two flushes of growth a year and the other two needle Pines that only produce one flush of growth a year. Until a couple of years ago the "Two Needle Pine" play book was almost totally focused on the JBP to the exclusion of the others, or the mistaken inclusion of the others which, in fact, do not perform the same way.
I have seen good Junipers ruined by this passionate and almost prejudicial claim that you don't pinch Junipers, you clip them. That of course is a thread for another post I suppose.
The point being; if you are going to hang your coat on a particular principal there are two things to remember: One, that the tree is ready for the technique and two, are you using the right technique for the right tree.
It has only been recently that many of these masters teaching this stuff, have pointed out that there is a difference between the techniques used on JBPs and JRP's, two needle Pine with two flushes of growth a year and the other two needle Pines that only produce one flush of growth a year. Until a couple of years ago the "Two Needle Pine" play book was almost totally focused on the JBP to the exclusion of the others, or the mistaken inclusion of the others which, in fact, do not perform the same way.
Driver170
Shohin
Very true and understand the difference and in no way am I trying to refine these nursery stock pines lol feed, water and wait REPEAT
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
In the mean time just make sure you understand what you have been watching and hearing. You have to understand that many of the things being taught today are for trees in the refinement or at least advanced development stage. Do many of these things that look like they will really help develop a bonsai on a tree not ready for them you will set you and your tree back many seasons. Thinking that you can do that stuff now and have a real head start on material is false. Often you can take the tree in the opposite direction.
Driver170
Shohin
Unless you go out and pay for a bonsai that cost over 500 buck and skip all the work to get there. But no matter what stage a bonsai is at even at maintenance level its never complete?
I have a Japanese yew which is beautiful but needs alot of work done to get it back on track. I would consider that being at refinement stage, i've even backed off from feeding it as I don't want new growth its grew enough lol
I have a Japanese yew which is beautiful but needs alot of work done to get it back on track. I would consider that being at refinement stage, i've even backed off from feeding it as I don't want new growth its grew enough lol
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I think the problem many people have is that they start by learning about pine bonsai with JBP. It is (in my opinion) far better to learn with single flush pines (since they represent the vast majority of species) and then, later, learn the exceptions that are dual-flush pines (JBP, JRP, Loblolly pine, etc).
You can apply the exact same process to JBP as mugo pine and you won't kill it (ie candle pinching versus candle removal). However if you do the reverse, you may very well kill the mugo.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You can remove the candles on a Mugo as long as you don't think and panic after watching for the ubiquitous second flush of growth. Single flush Pines can have the candles removed as I have describe previously but the best they will do is produce a lot of buds that will not grow till next year. The advantage? The subsequent new growth will be substantially shorter and more compact.
