New term for American bonsai

BuckeyeBonsai

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We could just call them as they are... trees in pots. You can find a nice Latin name that flows off the tongue nicely if you like, but we are artists that deal with trees in pots in the most fundamental sense.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Then there you have your name Rockm ;-)

@Vance Wood I get your point completely, but we define ugly in ways of bonsai-ugly. Because I think we've learned what's pleasing to the eye and what isn't, for a large part through exposure. But back when Ruebens painted fluffy oversized women they were considered beautiful. Nowadays, we, are forced to watch at skinny, big boobed innocent-looking ladies. These models are considered beautiful as well. Fluffy women are now called Plus sized models. In the public view, they are not considered to be as beautiful as regular models. Why is that? Is that, maybe because our definition of ugly and pretty is fluid? In the old paintings, plus sized was best. It was a sign of health, prosperity, vividness, livelihood. I can't even describe the old paintings of women without using negative phrasing. I honestly can't. That's partially because my way of thinking about beauty is defined by what I've seen and the general public's opinion. Flashy white skin, blushing red was the norm. Nowadays we have tanning salons, ladies chiseled out of marble, skin and bones, hard lines and sunken cheeks (pantera reference!). A completely opposite definition of beauty compared to just 80 or so years ago.

Take a look at Mata Hari for example. People have killed themselves to witness her beauty. Now that we have different rules about what beauty is, I've seen the pictures; she was nothing more than an unibrowed ugly ogre with a very interesting history. Human bodies haven't changed a lot. Not at all actually. But the definition of beauty and 'acceptable' has changed.
I used to despise deadwood on junipers. It is their best feature and it takes a crapload of work to make it look natural. I hated it for the artificial way it looked. Nowadays, my views have changed. For some reason I've been exposed to them so much, that I redefined my personal taste. I learned how to appreciate them. Would that be possible for bar branches and other flaws?

You have been doing bonsai for so long, seen so many trees, that the definitions of ugly and beauty (in terms of bonsai) are most likely etched into your very soul. Something I hope to achieve one day too. But should a new art form abide to those bonsai-definitions, even if it's not bonsai? Should the bonsai-definitions of beauty be thrown overboard and redefined because it's not bonsai?

I have no answers to these questions. But I'd like to hear peoples take on this. Even though the discussion has been done before, I haven't read it. But I still think it's interesting. It helps me define for myself, what bonsai really is. I'm learning a great deal here.
 

bonsaichile

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"Impasta" and "Non-sai"...........stellar!

What gets me about the Japanese "rules" is that, when confronted with a 900 hundred year old gnarled, tangled Juniper with spirals of deadwood and branches everywhere, a Japanese master never appears to be offended by it's non-conformity. He'll gladly buy it at the highest price, put his artistry to work and command a handsome price for the result. I agree wholeheartedly that these junipers are beautiful and would take one in a heartbeat. It just strikes me as somewhat hypocritical that the "rules" can be ignored when it is convenient.
Then you don't understand the function of rules in art. Any art, really.
 

Joe Dupre'

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I typed "rules" in quotes for a reason..........sarcasm. I know they're not rules, but there are a few look at a great tree and pick it apart because it doesn't conform to things written in a couple of books. There are design cues that have been proven over time to be "aesthetically pleasing".....(there's that sarcasm again). Basically, we are doing art. If it pleases the artist, that's what really matters. NOW...... if you want to win contests and have people buy your art, and make a big fuss over it, you must conform to what is expected.

Anyway, I'll still call my hobby bonsai. And, despite the question that Ryan raised, I don't think American Bonsai is different enough (or at all) from traditional Japanese bonsai to warrant a new name.
 

Mark

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The all American bonsai award was given to a bonsai tree, native to the US, in a US pot. But that's less of a difference than how the Japanese and Chinese art forms differ. It's basically the same result with different products.
The All American Bonsai Award was awarded to my American Larch Bonsai. The tree was in a rustic rock scoop container which happened to be American made. The stand was lake bottom drift wood which was selected to enhance the wild natural feel of the tree.
Not all Bonsai or displays have a theme or intended story but this display was my tribute to the Adirondack mountains. I have memories with family & friends skiing, hiking camping from the time I was 2 years old. The beauty has flooded my spirit as long as I can remember and I directly link my love of Bonsai to it.
The other elements in the display were selected to help convey the atmosphere of the Adirondacks.
The slab planting with a small but ancient Red Spruce joined with moss, ferns and stone was composed especially for this display.
A small container resembling a tree stump with mushrooms at the base with a small fern was added to wed the larger pieces. The container was made by my friend Pauline Muth and
is a treasure to me.
Finally, the dark, weathered and deeply fissured barn wood tied the composition together in a way that felt right to me. The process of creating this display started with removing the Larch which I collected 25 years ago,from a Japanese drum pot which looked ok but it was not until the planting with a second Larch in the scoop was complete did it truly feel right to me. That was 3 1/2 years ago.The trees were slowly detuned from a tighter look to a more relaxed feeling. The surface was slowly planted with ferns, small plants and a small ancient Balsam fir to complete my vision.
The rest of the composition was created one piece at a time considering many options. My goal was to create a tribute to the place my love of nature and Bonsai sprung from, the Adirondack Mountains.
My display captured that feeling for me and that many others were captivated by its magic was most gratifying. My intention was not to win the All American Bonsai Award but I was honored that it did.
 

shinmai

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This is an excerpt from something I posted elsewhere this past spring on the subject of nonsai....

Forget about scalene triangles, branches inside the curve, wide nebari, perfect taper, and so on. The only rules in nonsai are these two: [1] try not to kill the tree, and [2] if it pleases you and makes you happy, it’s cool.
The American Nonsai Society’s first interplanetary convention will take place at a time and location to be announced in the near future. Sites currently under consideration include a sushi and hibachi restaurant, and an Irish pub, both on the east side of the city of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA.
The ANS has no membership application, no dues, no website, and no meetings. If you think you might be a member, you are. I’m still working on the official gang sign and the secret handshake.
 

bonsaichile

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I typed "rules" in quotes for a reason..........sarcasm. I know they're not rules, but there are a few look at a great tree and pick it apart because it doesn't conform to things written in a couple of books. There are design cues that have been proven over time to be "aesthetically pleasing".....(there's that sarcasm again). Basically, we are doing art. If it pleases the artist, that's what really matters. NOW...... if you want to win contests and have people buy your art, and make a big fuss over it, you must conform to what is expected.

Anyway, I'll still call my hobby bonsai. And, despite the question that Ryan raised, I don't think American Bonsai is different enough (or at all) from traditional Japanese bonsai to warrant a new name.

"If it pleases the artist, that's what really matters."

That would only be true if are was NOT a form of communication. Alas, it is. Art is not "artist-centric." Or, as Marcel Duchamp insisted, the creation of a work of art is a collaboration between artist and audience. And the tree, we might add, in the case of bonsai. So, no: It is not enough that "it pleases the artist." If you want to make art, you need more than that.
 
D

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"If it pleases the artist, that's what really matters."

That would only be true if are was NOT a form of communication. Alas, it is. Art is not "artist-centric." Or, as Marcel Duchamp insisted, the creation of a work of art is a collaboration between artist and audience. And the tree, we might add, in the case of bonsai. So, no: It is not enough that "it pleases the artist." If you want to make art, you need more than that.

so, for example, if Walter Pall chose to do what he does in his private backyard without sharing his trees with others at exhibits or online, his trees would not qualify as art in your opinion?

I personally don't think we need exclusive terms or definitions.

Most of this forum hasn’t even attained “bonsai” yet. Don’t you all think learning to walk would be prudent before trying to run?

Just sayin....

you don't need to play or work in the NHL to discuss hockey

As an aside, this is a discussion-based forum by design; it is designed for discussion. why are you asking us not to discuss? the forum would cease to exist.
 

LanceMac10

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Most of this forum hasn’t even attained “bonsai” yet. Don’t you all think learning to walk would be prudent before trying to run?

Just sayin....




sticknbowl!! should work for me a few/several years......I'll worry about it later.

 

shinmai

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I have a friend who was the long-time treasurer of our art museum. He often said that his personal standard was, "If I could do it, it's not art."
My wife and I were at the National Gallery, looking at a display of three of Rothko's monochrome, rectangular canvases, and making reference to my friend's standard, I said, "I could do that." My wife, a trained artist, replied, "Yeah, but you didn't, did you?"
 

bonsaichile

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so, for example, if Walter Pall chose to do what he does in his private backyard without sharing his trees with others at exhibits or online, his trees would not qualify as art in your opinion?

I personally don't think we need exclusive terms or definitions.

Art is a social phenomenon. It only exists in a community, and it has meaning in that community. Art is not a personal endeavor; that is just a part of art. If I write, and never publish, I might be a writer, but not an artist. Writing only become art once people read it, enjoy it, hate it, make it theirs, and (this is the key part) enter into a dialogue with it. Walter Pall is an artist, and a not small part of his artistry is displaying (which is also a big part of bonsai): both in shows or in the wonderful threads he regales us with in this forum, the presentation is never sloppy. He carefully photographs every tree. The artist has a vision, and expresses that vision. But a vision needs a viewer to achieve its full meaning. Degas once said that everything an artist does, he does it for the public. Like any form of communication, art presupposes the other to have any meaning at all.
 

Bananaman

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you don't need to play or work in the NHL to discuss hockey

As an aside, this is a discussion-based forum by design; it is designed for discussion. why are you asking us not to discuss? the forum would cease to exist.
Please quote the part where I told you not to discuss anything? I asked a question... there is a difference. Do you understand the difference?
 

Walter Pall

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The ABS Journal is preparing an article about the question "Should we find a new name for what we are doing if we do not adhere to Japanese rules anymore?" Besides others I was approached to submit my opinion. I wrote a full page and it will be published soon. Unfortunately I cannot post it here as long as it is not published. So we have to wait for ABS. After they have printed it I will publish my comments here.
 

Bananaman

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I would’ve interested to read about these Japanese rules. Most of the ideas I use for the styling of trees has to do with art principles and horticultural needs. Just because the Japanese, or Chinese for that matter did them first does not make them strict Japanese or Chinese “rules”.
 

Joe Dupre'

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I looked at the definition of art from several sources online. Not one mentioned there needing to be a recipient of the art. My own criteria for art is creating something new and different that is pleasing to me. If you make something that is almost identical to some existing thing, it is a craft. Craft can be learned, art comes from within the person.
 

0soyoung

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Congratulations on your award, Mark.
I admire your focus on telling yourself a story, stirring your own emotions (as opposed to focusing to impress someone else).
My goal was to create a tribute to the place my love of nature and Bonsai sprung from, the Adirondack Mountains.
My display captured that feeling for me,
This is what the best bonsai are about, IMHO.
 
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