New to Scotch Pine

[stosh]

For a few weeks now my young Scotch Pine is doing well in my deep 10 inch pot. It has four candles at the top that are getting longer and greener. So are the other candles at the tip of each branch. My goal is to have a thick trunk for starters. Is there any books you guys recommend for the bonsai? Heres a picture

 

[Paradox]

The book "Pines" from Stone Lantern is probably the best book on pines but it mainly talks about Japanese white and black pines. Scots is a bit different.

Be prepared to wait for a lot of years before you can do any kind of styling on that pine. It is very young. It might also be best to plant it in the ground and just let it grow. That is the fastest way to get a thick trunk and may be the only way.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is a project pine I've been working on for a few years, and documented in a 2-part post. You may find it helpful:

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/03/02/sacrifice-branches-black-pine/

The end of part 2 shows a younger pine that may be a bit more applicable for the age of your pine, but the process is the same in both cases:

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/sacrifice-branches-black-pine-part-2/

The idea is to identify sacrifice branches used to thicken the trunk, and final branches, cpfrom which you build the bonsai. In the attached photo, it is becoming clear which is which...that takes a few years, so it's important to keep track.

 

[stosh]

The Scots is so young It didn't develop a sacrifice branch yet. I don't think its a good idea to put it into ground now. I just repotted and it is growing at a nice pace. Next spring I will put it in the ground

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

No; they're already on the tree...you need to choose which branches are final and sacrifice and treat them accordingly. Likely, the apex should be treated as a sacrifice branch. You just need to establish a vision of roughly what the finished bonsai will look like, and utilize branches as final or sacrifice branches to get it there. Read those posts, it should help.

 

[Vance Wood]

No; they're already on the tree...you need to choose which branches are final and sacrifice and that them accordingly. Likely, the apex should be treated as a sacrifice branch. You just need to establish a vision of roughly what the finished bonsai will look like, and utilize branches as final or sacrifice branches to get it there. Read those posts, it should help.

You can use the main terminal as a sacrifice branch but with Scots Pines you will need to eliminate all of the new budding branches that are trying to form at the top/end of the main terminal. If you do not do this all of these new whorl type branches will hog all of the power from the core of the tree and the weakening bottom branches will continue to decline.

Scots Pines will back bud everywhere, that's one really good thing about them but you have to encourage those places that have back budded to continue to grow. This will not happen if the dominant parts of the tree, the ends and top of the tree, are encouraged to develop normally. Back budding is generally a response to some sort of hinderance to the nominally dominant portions of the tree.

I am not suggesting that Brian is wrong, he is not, but with Scots Pines I have found that it is usually best to treat them as above until it is quite obvious that the tree is now responding to your will. Then you can start to make branch selections and all that goo stuff.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

In that case, Vance, it sounds like the balance can be improved (between sacrifice and final branches) by removing most of the needles from the sacrifice branch, leaving only the few pairs surrounding the new buds.

edit: reading your post closer, I don't know how removing those 4 buds at the top of the terminal would result in making that shoot a sacrifice branch. I'd remove all but 1 of the 4 buds, and remove some needles from the lower portion of the shoot, leaving only a few surrounding the extending bud. That way, you get sacrifice growth out and away from the final portion of the tree

 

[stosh]

You can use the main terminal as a sacrifice branch but with Scots Pines you will need to eliminate all of the new budding branches that are trying to form at the top/end of the main terminal. If you do not do this all of these new whorl type branches will hog all of the power from the core of the tree and the weakening bottom branches will continue to decline.

Scots Pines will back bud everywhere, that's one really good thing about them but you have to encourage those places that have back budded to continue to grow. This will not happen if the dominant parts of the tree, the ends and top of the tree, are encouraged to develop normally. Back budding is generally a response to some sort of hinderance to the nominally dominant portions of the tree.

I am not suggesting that Brian is wrong, he is not, but with Scots Pines I have found that it is usually best to treat them as above until it is quite obvious that the tree is now responding to your will. Then you can start to make branch selections and all that goo stuff.

So you think its best to remove the 4 buds on top? Doing that will strengthen the lower branches? I don't think its a great idea now I just repotted 2 weeks ago.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

So you think its best to remove the 4 buds on top? Doing that will strengthen the lower branches? I don't think its a great idea now I just repotted 2 weeks ago.

I edited my post above with my thoughts...

 

[Vance Wood]

In that case, Vance, it sounds like the balance can be improved (between sacrifice and final branches) by removing most of the needles from the sacrifice branch, leaving only the few pairs surrounding the new buds.

edit: reading your post closer, I don't know how removing those 4 buds at the top of the terminal would result in making that shoot a sacrifice branch. I'd remove all but 1 of the 4 buds, and remove some needles from the lower portion of the shoot, leaving only a few surrounding the extending bud. That way, you get sacrifice growth out and away from the final portion of the tree

In short; if you allow those buds to develop the tree will devote all it's energy to develop that upper branching, which is normal for the tree. It will do this at the cost to the lower growth you may be wishing to stimulate.

If the idea behind a sacrifice branch is to thicken the trunk then that would be fine, let all that stuff grow. However once you get the trunk to the thickness you desire what are you left with. If you allow the top, or in this case, the extending sacrifice branch the idea is to let it grow out as above, you may or may not have any kind of growth down low on the trunk to work with. What I have found to work is to allow all of the lower growth to grow unhindered pretty much, but allow the top to grow something verticle only, without branches, to draw out the thickness of the wood. If you allow the top to develop freely; within one or two years at the most, the top will suck the life out of the lower growth.

If having repotted just a couple of weeks ago should not be a problem. If you want to wait till July you can start. However you have to remember something critical. Scots Pines are a single flush Pine and can not be treated the same way JBP can be treated being a double flush Pine (it has two growth spurts). I have grown and sold hundreds of Scots Pines at shows for years and this is the way I develop them. I will try to post some pictures to show what I mean.

 

[jkd2572]

So Vance since they are single flush. How do you promote back budding. Do you still cut candles? I have read from multiple European articles that you cut candles just like black pine. Below is one such article with pics. It also says they produce a 2nd flush. It's written by Hans van Meer, who is quite an authority on bonsai.
http://www.karamotto.org/?page=21

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Just a point to remember: no pines are, of and by themselves, a two-flush growth habit.

Stronger, or more appropriately, faster-growing pines can be prompted by intervention to produce a second flush of growth in a single growing season. Maybe Scott's pines in the right climate have the capacity to produce a second flush of growth.

Left to their own devices, JBP will produce a single main flush of growth in the spring, open needles, set buds, and spend the rest of the year lazy, getting fat and happy.

Only when we force it to respond to our training techniques, will it grow a second flush in a year. Just so happens, JBP responds very reliably to that technique.

 

[stosh]

In short; if you allow those buds to develop the tree will devote all it's energy to develop that upper branching, which is normal for the tree. It will do this at the cost to the lower growth you may be wishing to stimulate.

If the idea behind a sacrifice branch is to thicken the trunk then that would be fine, let all that stuff grow. However once you get the trunk to the thickness you desire what are you left with. If you allow the top, or in this case, the extending sacrifice branch the idea is to let it grow out as above, you may or may not have any kind of growth down low on the trunk to work with. What I have found to work is to allow all of the lower growth to grow unhindered pretty much, but allow the top to grow something verticle only, without branches, to draw out the thickness of the wood. If you allow the top to develop freely; within one or two years at the most, the top will suck the life out of the lower growth.

If having repotted just a couple of weeks ago should not be a problem. If you want to wait till July you can start. However you have to remember something critical. Scots Pines are a single flush Pine and can not be treated the same way JBP can be treated being a double flush Pine (it has two growth spurts). I have grown and sold hundreds of Scots Pines at shows for years and this is the way I develop them. I will try to post some pictures to show what I mean.

So by cutting 3 out of 4 buds will direct the growth to the lower end. Its safe to do this, now in the spring time (NYC weather). I'll get a pair of scissors now and cut them off if that's the case. And The remaining bud will develop into a new branch.
Now I can cut the whole bud off to the base, Not half or the tips?

 

[garywood]

Stosh, before you start cutting on your tree think about what size and style you would like. The tree is young, flexible and seems to be strong so you can train it to be almost anything you wish. The only constraint is time. Here are a couple of examples of sacrifice that will help you understand how they can help with a final plan. The first is JBP and is going to be a small tree. Everything above the first 6" will be cut off (sacrifice.) The next two are JWP which are the toughest to tame. They are going to be medium sized trees. One sacrifice out of the top and one in the middle of the tree. Sacrifice branches are not a drain on a tree but a benefit if you understand what makes a tree do what it does.

 

[Vance Wood]

So Vance since they are single flush. How do you promote back budding. Do you still cut candles? I have read from multiple European articles that you cut candles just like black pine. Below is one such article with pics. It also says they produce a 2nd flush. It's written by Hans van Meer, who is quite an authority on bonsai.
http://www.karamotto.org/?page=21

The same way; you cut all of the new growth off leaving about 1mm of the new stem at the base. This is usually done around the middle of July. This will not cause a second flush of growth like JBP but it will produce an abundance of new buds that wont break till spring of the following year. Sometimes there are a lot of new buds forced down the branches on the old wood. In all the years I have been growing these trees I have only once had a second flush of growth expand on a Mugo or a Scots Pine. As long as we are quoting authorities Ryan Niel has an entire video dedicated to explaining single flush Pines; Mugos and Scots. I will see if I can find it. Remember you do not mess with weak growth. You strengthen the weak by cutting the strong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-1Y6j2wgI2U]

 

[Vance Wood]

For a few weeks now my young Scotch Pine is doing well in my deep 10 inch pot. It has four candles at the top that are getting longer and greener. So are the other candles at the tip of each branch. My goal is to have a thick trunk for starters. Is there any books you guys recommend for the bonsai? Heres a picture

Let's go back to square one for another look. You have obviously read this entire post so we don't need to rehash everything. One thing you really need to understand about those four buds at the top of the tree. When they open and extend they will grow around an axis that will get larger and expand as the branches grow. We call this a knuckle for obvious reasons; it looks like a knuckle. These are ugly formations and should be avoided and the major reason these four buds/candles should be eliminated sooner rather than latter.

I got to thinking also; if you have not decided what you want to do with the tree your really don't know any specifics as to where you are going. What I would do at this point if, this tree were mine: Wait till near the end of June when those four or five buds have extended and their needles open,--- cut that entire formation (the axis of evil) where they all originate from. Make sure you do not eliminate any of the needles on the stem below this point. You will get all kinds of back budding and will open the door to all kinds of options you do not now have.

 

[stosh]

After I cut "the axis of evil" off the stem and then after bottom grows stronger. Will the pine start to grow tall again?

 

[Vance Wood]

After I cut "the axis of evil" off the stem and then after bottom grows stronger. Will the pine start to grow tall again?

If you let it. If that's what you want at some point along that extended stem you have there staring you in the face, you can pick out one of the many new buds that will form along its length as your new leader and let it go.

In the mean time the lower branches will continue to develop and you may want to develop one of those into the new top of the tree. The point is; you have disrupted the pattern of development that would have continually influenced the tree until it was grown. You now can control where the tree goes and what happens with it without whorls along its length.

 

[stosh]

One last question, Can I cut off " the axis of evil" now or in late June?

 

[Vance Wood]

One last question, Can I cut off " the axis of evil" now or in late June?

It's a young tree and it probably does not make a lot of difference but the closer to the end of June the probability of good results improves a lot. But; in answer to your question, yes you could cut it off now.