New Winged Elm

[Rjoyce]

I just picked up this elm this weekend. It was labeled as an American Elm, but I think it's a winged elm. After a little on-line research, it seems that they aren't super hardy to New England, so I'm not sure what kind of winter protection they need.

Anyway, here's the tree:


A quick (crappy) virt on the phone:


And a few inspiration trees:

 

[coachspinks]

Nice looking tree! That is an elm but to me the bark doesn't look like a winged elm. I have a couple of winged elms and the bark is much lighter and rougher.

 

[TN_Jim]

I agree with @coachspinks on the bark. Close up of a flat leaf could narrow exact ID. Winged leaves are long for an elm.

 

[Forrestford]

Im not sure if its a winged elm here is a branch on a juvenile one. Easiest way to tell.

 

[penumbra]

Nothing here to indicate a winged elm. I see none of the 'wings' on the stems. I have a weeping winged elm and it is very different.

 

[Rjoyce]

It's quite likely I have the ID wrong. There are a couple bits that look like old wings on the secondary trunks. I meant to get a picture this morning but got side-tracked and will do it tonight. They may be a fungus, but I haven't seen mushrooms growing in a vertical line. From what I've seen of winged elm's wings, they seem to appear on strong growing twigs, but this tree hasn't really pushed strong growth and all the early leaves were damaged. We have had a very wet, cool spring and this tree is in really crappy soil, so there seemed to be some fungal issues in the leaves. Also, I think the bark looks dark because it's dirty, so I will have to give it a spray and scrub. It's still fairly smooth, but probably not as dark as the picture suggests. Anyway, if it's not a winged elm, what are the other likely options for species? I may just need to get it growing healthy to see what the hardened leaves and the stems look like. Either way, I have until October to figure out how much winter protection it needs. Thank you all for your input!

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Doesn't look American Elm to me. Maybe Cedar Elm?

 

[coachspinks]

Doesn't look American Elm to me. Maybe Cedar Elm?

I was thinking the same. Do cedar elms grow that far north?

 

[Zach Smith]

I was thinking the same. Do cedar elms grow that far north?

Cedar elms are native to Texas and North central Louisiana.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you bought it from a nursery, new "American Elms" being sold are probably hybrids, because American elms are susceptible to Dutch elm disease, a series of hybrids were made with several back crosses to American elm to get a more ''classic'' adult tree look. So nursery raised American elms are not likely to be ''purebreds'' and especially as young trees may show some traits that will make you wonder what species they really are.

Just keep it lablelled as american elm. It should be fully winter hardy in your area if the nursery was local to you.

 

[Housguy]

Im not sure if its a winged elm here is a branch on a juvenile one. Easiest way to tell.
View attachment 243377

Looks like wings to me on that branch. I have a winged elm and its wings look similar to yours, enjoy!

 

[cbroad]

@Rjoyce
The serrations on your leaves are more coarse compared to my winged elms. Yours does remind me more of American or rubra. Leo brings up a good point about the hybrids.


Isn't there something about American elm leaves being rough on the underside, or on the top? I can't remember which but this could maybe help i.d. it.

The smooth trunk doesn't necessarily mean it isn't winged elm though, I've seen many pictures here of winged elms that only have wings on younger branches. But around here, our native winged elms have winged trunks upwards of 4-5" diameters, after that it just turns into craggy bark.

And not trying to hijack, but @penumbra I'd love to see a pic of your weeping winged elm. I've never heard of one!

 

[penumbra]

Hopefully I can load these pictures of my weeping winged elm. If it works you can see wings on very thin stems and on the trunk. It has been in the ground for over 20 years and is about 3 feet tall. It is a bit crowded with rudbeckia in one of my cottage gardens. I never intended it as a bonsai but it is really awesome when it is bare. It could happen still.

 

[Rjoyce]

Haha, gotta love a good tree ID thread! As always, thanks for the great info @Leo in N E Illinois. I got the tree from a local bonsai nursery, who got it "from Florida". He was a bit distracted talking to someone else so I didn't get much more info on its provenance.

I took a couple pictures of the larger stems that still had wing remnants, but it could still be a hybrid. @cbroad, I will check the underside of the leaves and report back.

 

[Rjoyce]

I'm not sure if it helps the ID, but the underside of the leaves are rough, as are the tops. Either way, I will plan to treat it like any of my other elms this winter, either putting it under the bonsai bench and mulching it in again, or building a cold frame (if I can find the time).

 

[cbroad]

the underside of the leaves are rough,

Just looked it up, it seems the roughness of the foliage isn't a good determiner between elm species, only from telling elms apart from other genera...

I found this site comparing American and slippery elm: https://www.carolinanature.com/trees/ulru.html. I only bring up slippery elm because this is what I'm more familiar with in my area.

It seems winged elm is only hardy through zones 6-9, so depending on where you live it may not be that hardy in your area. Not sure from what kind of nursery you found this at, but hopefully they aren't selling non hardy trees in your area; unless it is a specialized (bonsai) nursery, than that's ok.

And seems some of your leaves haven't "hardened" off yet, so it's hard to tell what a mature leaf will look like. American elm leaves seem to be more elliptical while winged elms seem to be more lance shaped overall. And your foliage just seems more "toothy" than mine, so I don't really know...

 

[cbroad]

Not sure from what kind of nursery you found this at

Just reread, saw the part about the plant possibly coming from Florida. Haha just makes it more confusing...

 

[Rjoyce]

unless it is a specialized (bonsai) nursery

Yup, it's a bonsai nursery, so there are species from all different zones. I just found someone else who has purchased a similar looking tree to mine from the same nursery a couple years ago, but isn't sure of the exact species. Maybe we can figure out together!

 

[Rjoyce]

Okay, so almost certainly not a winged elm. Maybe American, or Slippery, or a hybrid of sorts? Anyway, it's an elm, so I'll just treat it like an elm for now.

That being said, it was growing strong and healthy, so I cut it back... a bit harder than anticipated. I was originally going to just hedge-prune it, but started seeing several structural flaws, and removed those (you can see the cuts, which were covered in cut-paste shortly after these pics were taken). The branches I removed were all either starting from the same node as several others, such as the two lowest branches at the same spot where the trunk splits. Or they were growing at an odd angle. Or they were long, straight, no-taper, growing as secondary or tertiary branches. After cutting, I put it back on the bench and added several fertilizer pouches and expect a decent amount of back-budding, which will get this tree closer to refinement stage.

Before:
Likely Front


Likely Back:


After:

 

[TN_Jim]

There's a field technique for slippery ID. It involves something along the lines of getting growth just past the petiole and scraping back just the first layer of bark -the twig will have a liquid of sorts like the moisture found in most growth on any woody species; however, it will be viscous or 'slippery'. My dendro prof. instructed us that if you can not feel this with the hand that the difference in a slippery vs other elm can be found by putting the twig in your mouth. Other elms will just be a wet twig of sorts. Its not oily or slimy really, its really just a slickness.

I have not tested this in a while, but it's solid if you get a feel for it. Anyone else know this technique?...think I got application that right.
Big ups to the brilliant walking encyclopedia and great man that is Dr. Dan Combs.