New Zelkova Broom

[leatherback]

I would guess 3 yrs at most for 3”

I do hope so! But from what I have seen so far.. And considering I would layer this year, starting next years'growing season with a new set of shoes that needs to be worn in first, and me going to work the roots at some point too; Maybe not lifting, but certainly undercutting, it might take a little longer.

More and more, I realize that a good nebari is the cherry on top of bonsai. So I would happily sacrificy a year or so of explosive growth by keeping the roots in check. Unless someone can convince me that the nebari will improve quickly with frequent rootwork once in pot?

While the brooms look nice, I just feel they have been overdone and everyone seems to have one or two at an exhibit. What you don't see is gnarly spreading oak styles like they grow. That's what I want

Hehe. The motherplant has been in the ground for a bit and I am at a 2-3 inch diameter, with 4 cutbacks so far. Going for a much wilder version of Zelkova. But the longer I look at bonsai, the more I appreciate the challenge in growing a good broom. And to me, Zelkova looks like the best species for it.

I am truely sorry this thread has become so messed up.

No worries. I like it when people try to be smarter than the rest. It gives me things to reflect upon and maybe learn that there are two sides to each story. And for the rest.. Water on a ducks' back?

 

[BobbyLane]

these are all zelkova, i would be happy to use anyone of these for inspiration

 

[music~maker]

That zelcova sitting on top of my BBQ next to my watering can is EXACTLY how zelcova's grow. I know cause this one has been in a can for about 12 years.
View attachment 237472

This will never be a broom, nor a centerline broom, nor a 1,2 back branch Moyogi or any other stupid style you wish to affix to it unless we make it that.

I wish this to look like a tree, comprende?

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what you do with this tree. I think a gnarly oak style would work really well.

Quick question - you said this has been in a pot for 12 years. Has it always been in that pot (or a pot)? It's got a decent looking trunk, so as a life long student of trunk development, I'm just curious what your process was for getting it that way. Given the timeline and the size, I'm assuming you probably grew this from a sapling?

 

[music~maker]

Well, here are a couple examples:

View attachment 237497

View attachment 237498

Hey, it’s your tree. You can grow it out any way you like! But I don’t know why you would want to grow a zelkova to look like an oak! You want an oak, grow an oak! There’s tons of beautiful California oaks! Zelkova tend to have that base shape to them. Doing it any other way is fighting their natural tendency. I have no idea how your zelkova came to be the way it is. Something happened to it.

But, you can get all pissed at me for whatever reason you want. I’m not the one fighting Mother Nature!

People grow one species to look like another all the time. Zelkova leaves do bear a slight resemblance to oak leaves, and they scale down a whole lot easier. If the tree can grow that way, who cares?

I'm guessing that the "something" that happened to Al's zelkova is that he probably pruned it along the way. You can build trunks on Zelkova similar to how one builds a trunk on a maple, so wouldn't be surprised if he guided it along into that shape with the intention of making something interesting out of it later.

And if I could make an observation - you seem to be a "by the book" kind of guy. Nothing wrong with that per se. You have your specific ways and methods, and you clearly have the chops to make great trees. But every time I see you get into some heated thing with somebody, it's generally around a topic where you treat something as more black and white than it actually is. Very consistently. And those who know that the alternative they are proposing will work are always going to push back on you for those things.

This is one example, the topic of soil components is another if I recall. But I've seen you get into it with people countless times, and it always seems to be over things like this. There's often more than one way to skin a cat, and sometimes when we color outside the lines we make interesting discoveries and get wonderful results. I like you and I think you generally try to be very helpful to people here, so just a bit of friendly feedback.

 

[Lazylightningny]

The longer I am in bonsai, the more respect I have for someone who can develop these highly ramified brooms. They are amazing.

 

[Tieball]

I planted three Zelkova trees in the ground about 5-6 years ago. The starting point was 3/4” diameter. They grew very tall. The trunk diameter hardly changed year to year. I had tall thin utility poles of about 1” diameter. Tall poles though. I finally dug them up and moved them to the woods out of my sight. Trunk growth was disappointing. I hope your trunk growth is much better than mine.

 

[leatherback]

I hope your trunk growth is much better than mine.

Thx. I am sure it will be. Zelkova build girth quite well in my garden.

 

[leatherback]

Just as an update.. The airlayer I was taking of the branch was a failure. A storm pushed through breaking the layersite. I tried to rescue it by making a cutting but it did not take. Back to the growing board, waiting for another suitable branch.

 

[BobbyLane]

People grow one species to look like another all the time. Zelkova leaves do bear a slight resemblance to oak leaves, and they scale down a whole lot easier. If the tree can grow that way, who cares?

I'm guessing that the "something" that happened to Al's zelkova is that he probably pruned it along the way. You can build trunks on Zelkova similar to how one builds a trunk on a maple, so wouldn't be surprised if he guided it along into that shape with the intention of making something interesting out of it later.

And if I could make an observation - you seem to be a "by the book" kind of guy. Nothing wrong with that per se. You have your specific ways and methods, and you clearly have the chops to make great trees. But every time I see you get into some heated thing with somebody, it's generally around a topic where you treat something as more black and white than it actually is. Very consistently. And those who know that the alternative they are proposing will work are always going to push back on you for those things.

This is one example, the topic of soil components is another if I recall. But I've seen you get into it with people countless times, and it always seems to be over things like this. There's often more than one way to skin a cat, and sometimes when we color outside the lines we make interesting discoveries and get wonderful results. I like you and I think you generally try to be very helpful to people here, so just a bit of friendly feedback.

well, Japanese elm/Zelkova is an elm afterall.. its perfectly fine to build one that looks like a rugged old elm. some more in my favourites
Zelkova by Bonsai Arte, on Flickr

this one according to the caption is 800 years old, that makes it a veteran deciduous tree. the caption says:

Japanese zelkova about 800 years old at the nearby shrine.
Upper part is lost due to strike by lighting.

800 years old by coniferconifer, on Flickr

this one is heading down the path of a wide spreading deciduous tree.these branches start out erect at the trunk but then they want to dip, they dont stay erect.this hasnt been pruned or fully wired, the tree is just growing naturally in the mould of an elm i would say.


with that said. i have seen wild zelkova, there is one not far from me, with branches that grow and maintain that erectness. i think the growth pattern varies though just like many other deciduous trees in the wild. sometimes you see oaks or hornbeams with branches that all shoot up like a fan and other times they go up and spread and dip.

 

[defra]

I've got a ulmus minor or a other species of Dutch ulmus growing in the ground on a tile to go and try a broom with I know of what tree the seeds came since I collected them myself it also grows like a broom from its own so must be genetics as well the one I am growing out is already starting to broom, way above my future chop site...

I was googling because I also was looking for info on this matter and came here funny how I always seem to end on a topic on bnut lol