Newbie looking for guidance for this Itoigawa Juniper

[HandyGringo]

Hello, been lurking the forums for a while and read some good threads but never posted anything. I've seen others receive good ideas and inspiration for their bonsai so I thought I'd post it here and hope there are some obvious things I can change or look into to improve the shape of my tree.

It's been thinned out a bit but I'm not sure where to create the pads and what shape to go for. The thinning out was mostly just the basics, haven't changed anything major yet but it's been sitting for a few years without pruning. I think the front I've picked is obvious since it's where the trunk is the most visible, but I'm very much open to ideas.

Thanks a lot and thanks for having me

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Bjorn Bjorholm has a nice tutorial on his youtube channel where he takes people though designing a juniper from a cutting.
Part 3 might be interesting for you to watch!

 

[BrightsideB]

Would have been better had you posted before doing the thinning. Cutting the outer growth would of aloud you to start developing pads closer to the trunk. I see you cut some branches closer to the trunk off which could have aloud for closer backbudding for the future development. Those pads being so far away from the trunk create to much negative space in my opinion. I can’t really give a lot of advice on what to do. But the tree has a trunk that would fit an informal upright style.

 

[HandyGringo]

Bjorn Bjorholm has a nice tutorial on his youtube channel where he takes people though designing a juniper from a cutting.
Part 3 might be interesting for you to watch!

I do like Bjorn, thank you, I'll check it out

Would have been better had you posted before doing the thinning. Cutting the outer growth would of aloud you to start developing pads closer to the trunk. I see you cut some branches closer to the trunk off which could have aloud for closer backbudding for the future development. Those pads being so far away from the trunk create to much negative space in my opinion. I can’t really give a lot of advice on what to do. But the tree has a trunk that would fit an informal upright style.

I'm afraid I might have overdone it based on your reply, but here's how it looked prior. I didn't feel like I took any major decisions with the removed growth, mostly small wimpy branches, crotch growth, branches crossing each other, straight upwards/downwards growth, ugly parallel branches, branches on wrong parts of the elbow, etc.

 

[LuZiKui]

Fellow noob here, but this is what I'm thinking. I believe you are saying the front would be pics 1-3. I would actually make that the back of the tree. It bows outward toward the viewer (this is called a pigeon breast by some) and your first branches are angled away from the viewer.

A very simple way to think of bonsai tree design, is as a person bowing slightly toward you with arms extended outward and slightly toward you, like they are welcoming you with a hug or something. I would make picture #5 the front since it has the trunk with the most interest. I really like the twisting of the trunk there and it provides way more visual interest than pics 1-3. You also have a really thick branch visible in pic 1 that is probably going to need to be removed. It's thicker than the branch below it, which goes against traditional design. Then you're probably going to need help on this next part from someone with experience, but I'd wire up the main vertical leader with some really thick wire (maybe 6mm or something) and bend/twist it to compress the height and add more movement on the top half.

As far as the branching, I'll disagree slightly with RKMcginnis. Junipers don't really backbud on old wood, so it's sort of the nature of the beast that all the growth is out towards the tips of the branches. I think you still have plenty of pads left and can work on getting them denser and bending them to where they need to go.

At any rate, if you can join a local bonsai club or workshop for an afternoon it will go a long way. I always say that 1 hour of hands on training/learning is worth 20 hours of youtube videos. Good luck!

 

[HandyGringo]

Fellow noob here, but this is what I'm thinking. I believe you are saying the front would be pics 1-3. I would actually make that the back of the tree. It bows outward toward the viewer (this is called a pigeon breast by some) and your first branches are angled away from the viewer.

A very simple way to think of bonsai tree design, is as a person bowing slightly toward you with arms extended outward and slightly toward you, like they are welcoming you with a hug or something. I would make picture #5 the front since it has the trunk with the most interest. I really like the twisting of the trunk there and it provides way more visual interest than pics 1-3. You also have a really thick branch visible in pic 1 that is probably going to need to be removed. It's thicker than the branch below it, which goes against traditional design. Then you're probably going to need help on this next part from someone with experience, but I'd wire up the main vertical leader with some really thick wire (maybe 6mm or something) and bend/twist it to compress the height and add more movement on the top half.

As far as the branching, I'll disagree slightly with RKMcginnis. Junipers don't really backbud on old wood, so it's sort of the nature of the beast that all the growth is out towards the tips of the branches. I think you still have plenty of pads left and can work on getting them denser and bending them to where they need to go.

At any rate, if you can join a local bonsai club or workshop for an afternoon it will go a long way. I always say that 1 hour of hands on training/learning is worth 20 hours of youtube videos. Good luck!

Really good point about the pigeon breast, it was just where the trunk was most visible so I assumed that was the way to go. I'll try looking at it from your suggested front tomorrow and re-evaluating.

When you say there's a branch that's too thick, which one do you mean? The one on the right that's almost trunk sized? Thanks for your advice

 

[Colorado]

Pretty good material, I think you could make an awesome small bonsai out of this.

Agree that photos 1-3 don’t look like a great front. Photo 4 looks like a better front from the photos provided.

The next step is to wire it. If you are looking for inspiration, the Bjorn video mentioned above is a good one. One of my favorites for juniper inspiration is checking out “china_bonsai” on Instagram. Find a design that you like and that would be plausible with your tree, and go for it!

 

[LuZiKui]

Really good point about the pigeon breast, it was just where the trunk was most visible so I assumed that was the way to go. I'll try looking at it from your suggested front tomorrow and re-evaluating.

When you say there's a branch that's too thick, which one do you mean? The one on the right that's almost trunk sized? Thanks for your advice

Sorry for the crude drawing but IMO you'll need to decide between either A or B as your main trunk. If you choose A as your main trunk you'll need to cut B since it is way too thick and out of proportion. If you keep B you'll have to do something with A since it is too tall. I can't really tell from the pictures but it looks like A has more branching and foliage higher up which is why I was initially thinking that becomes the main leader and you bend it down into place.

 

[Shogun610]

This is to be your front , do not choose any other front or A B branching as others suggest……but this for the other sides pictures 1-3 reveal inverse taper and make the tree look unstable… positioning can be improved later on for how you want the tree to lean but for this to be a good tree in the future , you just choose this front.

 

[LuZiKui]

This is to be your front , do not choose any other front or A B branching as others suggest……but this for the other sides pictures 1-3 reveal inverse taper and make the tree look unstable… positioning can be improved later on for how you want the tree to lean but for this to be a good tree in the future , you just choose this front. View attachment 448870

I think you may have misread. I wasn’t telling him to use 1-3 as the front. Whatever he chooses for front he is still going to need to address those A/B branches which is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Shogun610]

I think you may have misread. I wasn’t telling him to use 1-3 as the front. Whatever he chooses for front he is still going to need to address those A/B branches which is the point I was trying to make.

a simple angle change based on front 4 can alleviate that, and keeping the thicker branch in check to thicken up the leader once positioned starting with raffia and gauge wire on the thicker branches wiring down on right side and new apex to condense and create movement , just my suggestion the owner can choose whatever but this eliminates loss of foliage and with the branch cut out , it will create a hole in foliage

 

[sorce]

I didn't feel like I took any major decisions with the removed growth

As the only thing irreversible, removal of growth is always a major decision!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[HandyGringo]

Pretty good material, I think you could make an awesome small bonsai out of this.

Agree that photos 1-3 don’t look like a great front. Photo 4 looks like a better front from the photos provided.

The next step is to wire it. If you are looking for inspiration, the Bjorn video mentioned above is a good one. One of my favorites for juniper inspiration is checking out “china_bonsai” on Instagram. Find a design that you like and that would be plausible with your tree, and go for it!

Seems a consensus has been reached on photo 4 being the ideal front, I have a lot to learn. Thanks for the insta, seems like he's almost exclusively working with junipers, so that's perfect. Lots of jin features

a simple angle change based on front 4 can alleviate that, and keeping the thicker branch in check to thicken up the leader once positioned starting with raffia and gauge wire on the thicker branches wiring down on right side and new apex to condense and create movement , just mysuggestion the owner can choose whatever but this eliminates loss of foliage and with the branch cut out , it will create a hole in foliage View attachment 448872

I will look into your suggestions, thank you. So you think I should keep the thicker of the branches as a sacrificial and keep the less thick one? Or am I reading that incorrectly? Not entirely up to date on the lingo. Cheers.

As the only thing irreversible, removal of growth is always a major decision!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

Thank you, I will be more careful and patient in the future.

Sorry for the crude drawing but IMO you'll need to decide between either A or B as your main trunk. If you choose A as your main trunk you'll need to cut B since it is way too thick and out of proportion. If you keep B you'll have to do something with A since it is too tall. I can't really tell from the pictures but it looks like A has more branching and foliage higher up which is why I was initially thinking that becomes the main leader and you bend it down into place.
View attachment 448845

Thanks for clarifying, when looking at it from the back, the A branch has some nice movement to it, so I can't imagine getting rid of that currently, but as someone else said maybe angling works? I'll have to look into it some more, cheers!

 

[shimbrypaku]

The benefit of a round pot, just spin the pot to the side you like. As the tree develops the front will reveal itself.
Just my 2 cents

 

[Srt8madness]

I saw the claim "junipers don't backbud on old wood". Now I don't have any igoitawas, but all the other junipers I own backbud.

 

[BrightsideB]

I saw the claim "junipers don't backbud on old wood". Now I don't have any igoitawas, but all the other junipers I own backbud.

It’s usually in the crotches between branches with my experience with itoigawa. But not as good as others. The health of the trees help for sure.

 

[_#1_]

How do you guys help style or pick a front for this tree when all the pics where taken almost overhead?

The tree looks nice btw Mr Gringo

Is it possible to get a couple pics where you see less soil?

 

[HandyGringo]

How do you guys help style or pick a front for this tree when all the pics where taken almost overhead?

The tree looks nice btw Mr Gringo

Is it possible to get a couple pics where you see less soil?

Thank you, it has potential, gonna wire it again soon and see what is possible. Gotten some good ideas from the thread already ^^

I just took these, hope they're better

 

[Nickuk74]

Have you seen this channel? It's really good for junipers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/BonsaiDavid/videos

 

[HandyGringo]

Have you seen this channel? It's really good for junipers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/BonsaiDavid/videos

Thank you, I've somehow missed that guy entirely. His channel looks like a goldmine. I'm generally having a lot of trouble finding good bonsai learning material. There are some of the obvious YouTubers, but it seems really dry out there considering how popular bonsai is