Newbie Soil discussion

[rockm]

"But why if akadama is good should it not be good for start trees as well? If organic is so bad, why is it good for starter trees?"

Akadama is pretty expensive stuff. Using it for three dozen seedlings/saplings is like water skiing behind a yacht--you can do it, but it's mostly a waste. I never used Akadama much and when I got it, I made sure it went a long way by mixing it with other stuff. I also didn't use it on developing trees. I could use plain old bonsai soil and get mostly similar results on those trees. Akadama is best applied to ALREADY developed trees, as it breaks down over time increasing soil density, slowing growth (you don't want that with young developing stock). That slower growth can help with finer development points, like increased ramification, and prevent new more vigorous shoots from developing.

Here's a good explainer:

All about akadama - Bonsai Tonight

Akadama is a fundamental component of bonsai soil. It is used throughout Japan as a potting medium for both bonsai and general gardening purposes. More and

bonsaitonight.com

 

[Cable]

Turface is the best! Turface is the best!

I will cut you. lol/jk!



I mostly mix my own but sometimes buy pre-made. I don't use much akadama but this spring I mixed a little mid-grade akadama in with my usual DE/lava/pumice mix for my tropicals and was very happy with the results. Then I ran out and bought a pre-made "tropical blend" and the particle size was way too big for the trees. I had a heluva time keeping them wet enough until the weather warmed up enough to get them outside.

 

[penumbra]

Just want to mention that I used a product called Sakadama that is from South Africa. I like it very much. It is like a high fired Akadama.

 

[Srt8madness]

I remember seeing the Sakadama sales thread. That poor bastard got taken down like Batmans parents on theatre night.

 

[eugenev2]

I'm in year three of pursuing bonsai, and have little to show for it having spent most of that time experimenting with "cheap and free" soil components from whatever was around. THIS is the single biggest reason for soil wars. People are just that traumatized by trying to figure it out.

I've smashed pots and brick and rocks into bits when I've needed courser material, and I've climbed mountains to sift sand and pack it all home, and I've tried everything in between. I have a pretty decent feel for what will and won't make good soil components in a given situation, but in the end it just isn't worth all the effort when I could be doing something more productive.
Seriously, try breaking up enough old bricks small enough to fill a pot or two, and you'll understand why bonsai was a thing for the elite in pre-industrial days. I'm glad I did it all, and I'm glad for what I've learned from it, and I'm glad I live in a place where I have other options.

OP, I'm working with calcined clay floor dry materials right now. I have a good bunch of tropicals in calcined Fuller's earth, and calcined diatomaceous earth on standby when that runs out. Joberg doesn't freeze, so these sorts of products should do alright for your climate. They're available at auto parts shops, hardware stores, livestock feed shops and the like. They come in very small particle size, and you'll need to sift the fines out to keep it from clogging up, but without freeze/thaw cycles to worry about it won't break down in your pot too terribly quickly. Adding a fibrous organic additive, I've found, helps keep the particles from settling too much. I use coco coir, and occasionally other materials depending on the tree's needs. Coco coir- the ground husk of coconuts- expands when it gets wet, and helps push the inorganic particles away from each other, preventing compaction and opening the way for air and roots. This stuff can stay wet for a long time also, while still draining and aerating. It's not the best- especially for trees you're trying to develop nebari on- but it's cheap and effective for my current needs.

@ShadyStump, It really sounds like you have gone to hell and back for your soil/medium. One of the issues i have locally is product availability and often what the products are named, often they sell the products with very different names and little to no information on them, diatomaceous earth is an example where i haven't been able to find one that isn't being promoted as some sort of insecticide. Pine bark is another where the best i can find are orchid mixes and soil topdressing, which more often than not has very large chunks in them. Local big nursery store mixes (supposedly aimed at bonsai) are even worse, as they provide you with a list of about 20 items that may or may not be in the bag...almost lost a tree from one of those mixes...stayed wet for a week...during summer

 

[penumbra]

I remember seeing the Sakadama sales thread. That poor bastard got taken down like Batmans parents on theatre night.

I can understand that. It was fairly blatant. Yet the product is excellent.

 

[eugenev2]

Bringing things back to the OP's original thoughts, I'll try to break down my personal understanding into the basics.

Organic material in your soil is NOT necessarily bad.
It's dead matter that can rot, so it can contribute to root rot. It doesn't magically make all living roots rot; you need the right set of circumstances to get it rotting, largely meaning perpetually wet and lack of air.

Your pot is half the reason organic material can become problematic.
Small, shallow pots naturally don't like to drain as efficiently as deeper pots, but can also dry out faster, and there's less room for air to move around also. (It's a physics thing. Read up here for a deep dive) To compensate for these issues, we need a material in the shallow pot that drains easily, but doesn't dry out easily.
If you can find a well draining material that dries out too fast, you can mix in the right organic material to help compensate. If you find your soil is holding too much moisture, you can adjust your watering to compensate, or in some cases find the right material to open the soil up more. There are 1000 ways to compensate for less than ideal soil, and none of them are a magic bullet against disease.

Akadama is NOT the best thing out there.
The best thing out there is what works for you. If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid. Unfortunately the only way to find what works for you is to experiment a little.
Akadama was what was discovered in Japan some time ago, and when Japanese masters traveled to teach they brought akadama with them and taught that, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing or even the best thing depending on your situation.

And we're back to this...

Don't over think it, and don't be lazy about it.

@ShadyStump, really great resource thank you, explains a number of the concepts that people often mention and provided a lot of food for thought

 

[SeanS]

@eugenev2 happy to chat about what I use in SA and where to source it at affordable (in my opinion) prices. I use akadama, perlite, LECA and have reasonable sources for each. Message me your number if you want to chat to a local person

 

[dbonsaiw]

perlite,

Perlite gets a bad rap, but I think it's a great soil component.

 

[ShadyStump]

Perlite gets a bad rap, but I think it's a great soil component.

It's only real drawback compared to others is it's SOOOO light you can barely keep it in a pot. Makes pumice look like lead. A soft breeze or a less than gentle watering and your pot is empty. Mixed with other components this is mitigated but not eliminated.

For that reason alone people don't like it. It's good for seed and cutting starting indoors. I got full cubic yard bag of the stuff this past spring for container gardening, so I'll be experimenting with it for a while.

 

[eugenev2]

This might be a strange/silly question for people, does anyone using inorganic substrates and pond baskets/net pots or something similar have the issue that their substrate keeps on falling out?
Running a trial run with the below pots and sifted to between 2.4 and 5 mm as per the recommended 1/16 to 1/8 inch range. Any tips or tricks for this...besides buying the bigger size particle substrate?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Mikecheck123, how do you enforce this with something like peat moss/garden compost, which is generally very fine in comparison to most components? Or do you control this by keeping the percentage relatively low?

I have a set of US Standard Sieves, these are nesting sieves and allows fairly precise segregation of particle size. This was an out of calibration set discarded from work. A simple substitute is a screen made from window screen material. The sort of window screen fine enough to keep out mosquitos. Shake dry media on the screen. Discard to garbage or vegetable garden any particles that go through the window screen. This will eliminate fines and is easy enough to do. There are elaborate soil sifting devices you can construct, but you can keep it quite simple.

It's only real drawback compared to others is it's SOOOO light you can barely keep it in a pot. Makes pumice look like lead. A soft breeze or a less than gentle watering and your pot is empty. Mixed with other components this is mitigated but not eliminated.

For that reason alone people don't like it. It's good for seed and cutting starting indoors. I got full cubic yard bag of the stuff this past spring for container gardening, so I'll be experimenting with it for a while.

Top dressing each pot with a thin layer of long fiber sphagnum moss eliminates this problem. Put the moist moss down on the dry mix before you water the first time. It will "bond" to the surface and hold everything in place. Yes, chemically Perlite is actually a type of Pumice. It is a quarried product, same quarries will have layers of pumice and other volcanic ash types.

Top dressing with moss is a good general technique, no matter what media you use. Helps prevent watering "wash outs", which can happen even with akadama, or kanuma, or pumice.

 

[penumbra]

It's only real drawback compared to others is it's SOOOO light you can barely keep it in a pot. Makes pumice look like lead. A soft breeze or a less than gentle watering and your pot is empty. Mixed with other components this is mitigated but not eliminated.

For that reason alone people don't like it. It's good for seed and cutting starting indoors. I got full cubic yard bag of the stuff this past spring for container gardening, so I'll be experimenting with it for a while.

I use it mostly for inside mixes for seeds and cuttings. But for most things, when I would have turned to perlite, I now reach for DE.

 

[ShadyStump]

This might be a strange/silly question for people, does anyone using inorganic substrates and pond baskets/net pots or something similar have the issue that their substrate keeps on falling out?
Running a trial run with the below pots and sifted to between 2.4 and 5 mm as per the recommended 1/16 to 1/8 inch range. Any tips or tricks for this...besides buying the bigger size particle substrate?

I've had this problem trying dollar store baskets out. (Too flimsy, BTW) I've seen people line the whole thing with mesh, but that seems a bit counter to the point of a basket.
Cheap colanders are also an option, or even yard sale kitchen sieves. These can be found with smaller perforations.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

This might be a strange/silly question for people, does anyone using inorganic substrates and pond baskets/net pots or something similar have the issue that their substrate keeps on falling out?
Running a trial run with the below pots and sifted to between 2.4 and 5 mm as per the recommended 1/16 to 1/8 inch range. Any tips or tricks for this...besides buying the bigger size particle substrate?

You can line inside of the baskets with sheet moss from "craft stores" or long fiber sphagnum.

Generally, I do not find baskets useful for training pre-bonsai. There's a "cult" that promotes the use of baskets, but most experts I know never use baskets. Personally, I'd skip the baskets. Go with wide, shallow training pots.

 

[Srt8madness]

I don't think it's accurate to call basket growing a cult, when it's a tried and proven technique for developing compact roots and trunk thickening. It's fact when it comes to black pines, some other species might be questionable. Not sure what experts you're referring to, but the guys in Japan do it, as well as anyone in the states who can't ground grow.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Actually, in my area, zero of the 25 or so growers who's homes I've been to use baskets. But that's a narrow geographic sample. I have seen baskets used in states south from me, Georgia and Texas, but I don't recall seeing them in Wisconsin or IL.. It might just be regional. Use of baskets is far from universal.

 

[eugenev2]

You can line inside of the baskets with sheet moss from "craft stores" or long fiber sphagnum.

Generally, I do not find baskets useful for training pre-bonsai. There's a "cult" that promotes the use of baskets, but most experts I know never use baskets. Personally, I'd skip the baskets. Go with wide, shallow training pots.

I recently ran out of mesh for my pots and someone suggested to buy drywall tape as a easy replacement, so bought some of that and will try lining the pots that the holes are too large. But thanks, will make a note to remember this if my hack doesn't work.

I've had this problem trying dollar store baskets out. (Too flimsy, BTW) I've seen people line the whole thing with mesh, but that seems a bit counter to the point of a basket.
Cheap colanders are also an option, or even yard sale kitchen sieves. These can be found with smaller perforations.

I've been trying to find locally sourced cheap plastic colanders but haven't found any, they are ever up market kitchenware or cheap metal ones but i'm a bit worried of them rusting
Not sure whether colanders work or not, plenty of anecdotal evidence to say they work tho, regardless i can do with the extra drainage so giving it a try on my trees that require a dry environment.
I guess if it doesn't work, i will simply have a very aired pot

 

[crab apple]

I recently ran out of mesh for my pots and someone suggested to buy drywall tape as a easy replacement, so bought some of that and will try lining the pots that the holes are too large. But thanks, will make a note to remember this if my hack doesn't work.

I've been trying to find locally sourced cheap plastic colanders but haven't found any, they are ever up market kitchenware or cheap metal ones but i'm a bit worried of them rusting
Not sure whether colanders work or not, plenty of anecdotal evidence to say they work tho, regardless i can do with the extra drainage so giving it a try on my trees that require a dry environment.
I guess if it doesn't work, i will simply have a very aired pot

Why use colanders when Lowes sells pond baskets for under $5, they are UV resistant and last way longer and have a flat bottom that makes them so much better.

 

[ShadyStump]

Why use colanders when Lowes sells pond baskets for under $5, they are UV resistant and last way longer and have a flat bottom that makes them so much better.

You missed the post originating this line of conversation. The baskets he has have perforations that allow substrate particles to slip through. We're now discussing solutions and alternatives.