Newest addition, japanese white pine

[Vin]

I think you could keep it at its current angle if you bring the branches on the left down a little. If you bring it more upright then the right branches would need to come down. Either way, it's a beautiful tree. Nice work!

 

[Andrew Robson]

Update. I've spent the last two nights wiring this tree. I removed all wire earlier in the year because I wasn't really happy with the way it looked. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it still and I think the idea of an angle change making it more upright is becoming more appealling. I don't really like how the after the first bend the trunk is perpendicular to the soil level. Either way, i got to work on my wiring and spent some time with it. I don't think i crossed any wires(ok maybe one!).

Its one of, if not my most "finished" trees so i can appreciate those that say work with less trees, but of higher quality. This is relatively small and still took a lot of time. It's tough in the tight spaces. I like the way it looks more now than it did before because it's slightly more organized, maybe still a little messy and the back low branch kind of throws off the image in the picture. Anyhow I like sharing my trees. Feedback, thoughts, comments always appreciated.

Coming along very nice! I like this tree! Hard to comment on the angle change without seeing it in person, but from what I can see, up a little more might help!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Adair M]

Update. I've spent the last two nights wiring this tree. I removed all wire earlier in the year because I wasn't really happy with the way it looked. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it still and I think the idea of an angle change making it more upright is becoming more appealling. I don't really like how the after the first bend the trunk is perpendicular to the soil level. Either way, i got to work on my wiring and spent some time with it. I don't think i crossed any wires(ok maybe one!).

Its one of, if not my most "finished" trees so i can appreciate those that say work with less trees, but of higher quality. This is relatively small and still took a lot of time. It's tough in the tight spaces. I like the way it looks more now than it did before because it's slightly more organized, maybe still a little messy and the back low branch kind of throws off the image in the picture. Anyhow I like sharing my trees. Feedback, thoughts, comments always appreciated.

Ny, could you take a picture of one of the major branches from overhead? If I could see that, I could probably give you some pointers on how to "neaten up" this tree.

For starters, the tips should point up, but not straight up. About a 45 degree angle is good. Turn your hand, Palm up and pretend you're holding a basketball. See how your palm is relatively flat, but your fingers are curved down, then they curve up at the tips? That's what you want.

There are a few stray needles pointing down that show under the branch. Cut those off, very short. When you look at the tree with the branch at eye level, you should see wood at the bottom, and green above.

Next, arrange the levels of the branches so that two different branches are not competing for the same space. There should be a bit Of negative space between them.

Now, sometimes you do train two branches together to create one pad, but when you do, it should look harmonious. Not like the two branches are fighting with each other for dominance.

Next point: this one is a little complicated so bear with me... Is this tree still under "development"? Or is it near being "finished", and it's "show ready", or nearly so?

The reason I ask, you set branches differently. Farther apart if you're still developing, closer together if it's being refined.

Again, turn your palm up. Spread your fingers. See how the outside profile of your finger tips scribes a semicircle? Most people wire to make their branches look like this. Round.

Now take your fingers and bring them together. The outline formed by your finger tips is more triangular. Your middle finger is the longest, forefinger and thumb are one side of the triangle, ring finger and pinky another. Long term, that's the shape we want.

So, to refine, have the secondary branches wired to be more closely parallel with the main branch line. Rather than splayed out. This will also make the pads more dense. This is the way we want the branches to look when we're showing: Dense pads.

Sorry this post is so long. I hope it's useful.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Adair makes some good suggestions. I'd also note that you ideally want to harmonize the angle at which the branches exit the trunk. They can go from downswept on the bottom to level near the top. As-is, the major branching on the left above the bottom branch is pointing upward too much.

You have a visual flow problem in that your trunk is going strongly right and the lowest front branch is on the left. It looks like you're designing it to cross-flow, but you may well want to emphasize more movement to the right by compacting the left portion of the crown and extending the right slightly. It appears you've bent something to the left, which I would suggest un-doing.

The low back branch is just making the tree look messy - it's a hard decision to make but I think you could eliminate it. It's interfering with the view of the important curvature in the trunk. But before you take that advice I'd suggest that you consult with a professional or very experienced artist in person. The alternate would be move it, but I'm guessing it just isn't needed.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Ny, could you take a picture of one of the major branches from overhead? If I could see that, I could probably give you some pointers on how to "neaten up" this tree.

For starters, the tips should point up, but not straight up. About a 45 degree angle is good. Turn your hand, Palm up and pretend you're holding a basketball. See how your palm is relatively flat, but your fingers are curved down, then they curve up at the tips? That's what you want.

There are a few stray needles pointing down that show under the branch. Cut those off, very short. When you look at the tree with the branch at eye level, you should see wood at the bottom, and green above.

Next, arrange the levels of the branches so that two different branches are not competing for the same space. There should be a bit Of negative space between them.

Now, sometimes you do train two branches together to create one pad, but when you do, it should look harmonious. Not like the two branches are fighting with each other for dominance.

Next point: this one is a little complicated so bear with me... Is this tree still under "development"? Or is it near being "finished", and it's "show ready", or nearly so?

The reason I ask, you set branches differently. Farther apart if you're still developing, closer together if it's being refined.

Again, turn your palm up. Spread your fingers. See how the outside profile of your finger tips scribes a semicircle? Most people wire to make their branches look like this. Round.

Now take your fingers and bring them together. The outline formed by your finger tips is more triangular. Your middle finger is the longest, forefinger and thumb are one side of the triangle, ring finger and pinky another. Long term, that's the shape we want.

So, to refine, have the secondary branches wired to be more closely parallel with the main branch line. Rather than splayed out. This will also make the pads more dense. This is the way we want the branches to look when we're showing: Dense pads.

Sorry this post is so long. I hope it's useful.

Adair,
Thanks for your reply. Very helpful to me. To answer your question: I'm not seasoned as to defining trees but I would think this tree is in development. I would think it needs more refinement and as you said tidying up. I never seem to be able to get that clean look when I'm done working with something. I very much appreciate the tips you have given and will look at the tree again to cut the hanging needles. Here is a pic from the top. Thanks again.

 

[Adair M]

What I need is a close up of just one branch so that I can see if they are "Splayed out" or not.

Eric made good points, too.

Nice tree,take your time with it.

These thugs grow EXTREMELY slowly. Cutting anything off should be very carefully considered. You would be removing a decade of growth. Not that I disagree with anything Eric said. It's just that you want to be sure when you do it.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Adair makes some good suggestions. I'd also note that you ideally want to harmonize the angle at which the branches exit the trunk. They can go from downswept on the bottom to level near the top. As-is, the major branching on the left above the bottom branch is pointing upward too much.

You have a visual flow problem in that your trunk is going strongly right and the lowest front branch is on the left. It looks like you're designing it to cross-flow, but you may well want to emphasize more movement to the right by compacting the left portion of the crown and extending the right slightly. It appears you've bent something to the left, which I would suggest un-doing.

The low back branch is just making the tree look messy - it's a hard decision to make but I think you could eliminate it. It's interfering with the view of the important curvature in the trunk. But before you take that advice I'd suggest that you consult with a professional or very experienced artist in person. The alternate would be move it, but I'm guessing it just isn't needed.

Eric
Thanks so much for your input. I see what you are saying about the branch angles and flow. Admittedly I don't have any design ability whatsoever so I appreciate your insight. The top should come down so it doesn't look so level. I did think the top left of the crown was sticking out. I was having a tough time getting it in tighter with wire. I'll be sure to look at it again and also what may be bent left in that area.

I have pondered that back branch for a while. I'm chicken shit and tend to worry that my inexperience would lead to a bad decision so have left it. I'll look at it some more but am glad some else is thinking what I'm thinking. I really want to work with a pro at some point. Time wise it's a bit difficult at the moment. So I turn to folks like you here to help me make better trees. So again thanks for your input and response. I will read it many times over.

 

[Nybonsai12]

What I need is a close up of just one branch so that I can see if they are "Splayed out" or not.

Eric made good points, too.

Nice tree,take your time with it.

These thugs grow EXTREMELY slowly. Cutting anything off should be very carefully considered. You would be removing a decade of growth. Not that I disagree with anything Eric said. It's just that you want to be sure when you do it.

Thanks Adair. I will get another pic close up and try to post later on.

 

[Adair M]

Here's something else you can do: Have you watch those videos that Vance makes where he puts a tree on the turn table and spins it around to examine the tree from all angles? Do that. DONT be as rough as he is pushing the branches around! LOL. And DON'T immediately start chopping branches off!

The thing to do is to drape a white towel over any branch(Es) you're thinking of removing to see how it looks without them.

Put a white twisty tie on any you think you want to remove.

Set the tree aside for a week or more.

Go look at pictures of other trees similiar to yours, and try to determine what you like, and what you don't like about each of them.

Then, bring the tree back to the turntable and see if you still agree with the white twisty ties.

 

[0soyoung]

You have a visual flow problem in that your trunk is going strongly right and the lowest front branch is on the left. It looks like you're designing it to cross-flow, but you may well want to emphasize more movement to the right by compacting the left portion of the crown and extending the right slightly.

Thanks for detailing this, Eric. It is very helpful for me (a kibbitzer ).

But, what catches my eye (unpleasantly) is the weak low branch(es) on the right (may be going back). Then, to me, the branch on the left seems to emphasize the trunk movement.

I agree completely about compacting the crown on the left and extending it on the right!

To have such problems, @Nybonsai12 )

 

[Adair M]

It also helps to wire out every branch. Yes, every branch.

Here's a little technique tip: when you wire the smallest branches where you will end your wiring at the terminal tuft of foliage, make a little fish hook at the end. The curve of the hook should slightly cradle the needles. The end of the wire would then curl back towards the trunk, and up.

With the hook, you can control the terminal bud so that its positioned how you want it, and control the needles. Also, the cut end of the wire won't show. Because it's on the back of the foliage tuft. Cut ends of wire tend to glisten, and are more readily apparent than the hooks.

That little detail is very important when wiring JWP. Perhaps that's the comment someone made "you can tell if the wiring is done right when wiring JWP".

 

[Djtommy]

You have a visual flow problem in that your trunk is going strongly right and the lowest front branch is on the left. It looks like you're designing it to cross-flow, but you may well want to emphasize more movement to the right by compacting the left portion of the crown and extending the right slightly. It appears you've bent something to the left, which I would suggest un-doing.

This, flow/movement in a bonsai.
To me one of the more difficult task to get right still but necessary.
I have a jwp where i have kinda similar problem with and now in middle of some redesign,

 

[sorce]

Ny. I love this species. I Love this trunk.
I love that you are patiently creating a wonderful tree! Fantastic work!

That said.....
I would like to ask @Adair M and @Eric Schrader.....

The tree seems to be growing too evenly, as in it seems the bottom should be techniqued into stronger/ top weaker.
(Mainly the Shaded low right)
What technique? Needle pulling? Decandle timing?

Also, in regards to the branch layout/splayed versus tight.

From the top view, it seems everything is equally separated, like it would be in the "development" stage. Which is kind of where I see this, but still, I would expect to see more, clusters/pads.

Sorry for the hard to explain questionishs!
Kind of just want to open dialogue, maybe we can figure out what I mean!

I guess maybe. What would next seasons plans be?

Ny, again, this is what I consider possible world class material,(like Rochester is as close to this trees future as it is in distance!) one I aim to see in person one day! Just fabulous!

Sorce

 

[JudyB]

Good job, and you have gotten some good continuing development information. If you have a chance to take this to a workshop with a good artist, then I think it would be good to get some eyes on evaluation.

 

[Adair M]

Ny. I love this species. I Love this trunk.
I love that you are patiently creating a wonderful tree! Fantastic work!

That said.....
I would like to ask @Adair M and @Eric Schrader.....

The tree seems to be growing too evenly, as in it seems the bottom should be techniqued into stronger/ top weaker.
(Mainly the Shaded low right)
What technique? Needle pulling? Decandle timing?

Also, in regards to the branch layout/splayed versus tight.

From the top view, it seems everything is equally separated, like it would be in the "development" stage. Which is kind of where I see this, but still, I would expect to see more, clusters/pads.

Sorry for the hard to explain questionishs!
Kind of just want to open dialogue, maybe we can figure out what I mean!

I guess maybe. What would next seasons plans be?

Ny, again, this is what I consider possible world class material,(like Rochester is as close to this trees future as it is in distance!) one I aim to see in person one day! Just fabulous!

Sorce

Sorce,

"World Class". Really? I mean, it's a nice tree, but it's hardly World Class. That's a term that's been bantered about recently. Overused, unfortunately.

Now, I'm not down on the tree. But this tree, in Japan, is mallsai. They're produced by the thousands! They're somewhat rare (expensive) for us in North America because of the difficulties with importing.

This tree can be made into a pleasing bonsai with a little effort and time. And it would be showable in the local shows. Nationals? Not so much.

Again, I don't want to appear to be snobbish... Just realistic. This is a "production" tree. There's an industry in Japan based upon producing these trees. White pine is grafted onto Black pine stock. The black pine stock is wired into curves. The wire is left on permanently. The trees are field grown. After about 5 years, they get a trunk chop. Then they're left to grow another 5 years. Then, they're "harvested". The good ones get picked for special training. The rest get some selective pruning, and maybe even some wiring. And left to grow out in nursery cans for a couple years. Then they get potted into bonsai pots and sold. The ones that don't sell are offered to the exporters to be shipped overseas. That's right, we get the culls.

Don't get me wrong, even the culls can be made into something attractive. I have one of these trees myself! I posted a thread about it. I mean, the black pine trunk is usually fairly thick, the imbedded wire makes the trunk rough looking. The White Pine foliage is beautiful with nice blue-green short needles. But it is what it is: a production (assembly line) tree.

I have heard that there are so many of these now in Japan, the value has dropped to the point they're not digging any more. It costs more to dig them out of the fields than they can get by selling them.

Am I saying the owner should toss this tree in the trash? Not at all! It can be styled into a very attractive tree. It already is. For someone who likes JWP, here in North America, these trees are about the only way to have one. But, they're not "World Class".

Could one of these make it to the Nationals? Sure! But it really takes an exceptional tree. And generally, age. The transition from the JBP trunk to JWP is usually abrupt. After 30 years or so, the White Pine bark begins to roughen up so it's less apparent.

Sorry for the rant. It's a nice tree. But let's be realistic!

 

[sorce]

rant

Accepted.! Shows you what I know about pines!

Nut Class! Yes!

Can you still answer some of those questions? Please!

Sorce

 

[Nybonsai12]

Although it's nice to hear positive feedback, Adair is correct with his statements. Its a nice tree for a hobbyist like myself. I would think the nebari is lacking to even consider it for a big US event. I do think it could be considered for a club show but could never in a major competition, not that I would enter it anyway. I bought it for my own learning/enjoyment and I'm having a blast with it.

The whole world class tree discussion is tiring. Seems to be more about world class ego lately.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Although it's nice to hear positive feedback, Adair is correct with his statements. Its a nice tree for a hobbyist like myself. I would think the nebari is lacking to even consider it for a big US event. I do think it could be considered for a club show but could never in a major competition, not that I would enter it anyway. I bought it for my own learning/enjoyment and I'm having a blast with it.

The whole world class tree discussion is tiring. Seems to be more about world class ego lately.

This is an amazing piece...would be proud to have it on my bench. I'm more into what makes me happy and brings me joy.

Yeah...starting to think this is a horse forum...seeing who has the highest horse. Me...I'm all about what I can afford and brings me joy. I love the sound advice and knowledge found here by many. But, I'm staying out of the horse business from here on out.

I still would take Sorce's comment as a compliment as it was meant to be.

 

[Adair M]

Ny, I'm glad you weren't insulted! Whew!

Sorce:

JWP and JBP while they are both "pines", the requirements for training them are very different.

JWP: no decandling. If there are excess candles growing from a tip (i.e. More than 2) remove the extras and leave two. Which ones? It depends. On the top of the tree, remove the strong ones, keep the weaker ones. On the bottom, keep the strong ones, remove the weak ones. Now, take it with a grain of salt, those are "general" guidelines. There can be exceptions.

Don't pull JWP needles. If a shoot is too strong, cut some of the needles off near the base of the needles.

They don't readily backbud. They do, but you can't count on it. So don't build "backbudding" into your development plan. It's very easy for these trees to get "leggy". That is, long bare branches coming off the trunk with foliage at the very tips. Very hard to fix. This happens because the crown is allowed to get full, and it blocks any sun getting to the interior. So the interior branches die off. Often you will see a tree with very "creative" wiring: bends, loops, crossovers, etc. All designed to "shorten" the branch visually so that it looks like there are nice pads and foliage close to the trunk. The only real fix is to graft on new branches.

They grow VERY slowly. Treasure any branching that's close to the trunk. Whenever possible, keep as many branches and twigs as you can. The old rules about bar branches still applies, just realize that they grow at a snails pace.

You can wire them, but the places where the branches attach, the crotches, is fairly brittle. It's better to wire when the growth is young and flexible rather than plan on using rebar and jacks later.

The new growth will produce branches with smooth, grey bark. It takes about 30 years before the bark gets "flakey", and another 20 to 30 years for the bark to develop "plates". The ones with the plates: THOSE are the ones that are "World Class"! Lol!

 

[Adair M]

This is an amazing piece...would be proud to have it on my bench. I'm more into what makes me happy and brings me joy.

Yeah...starting to think this is a horse forum...seeing who has the highest horse. Me...I'm all about what I can afford and brings me joy. I love the sound advice and knowledge found here by many. But, I'm staying out of the horse business from here on out.

Darlene:

I'm just telling it like it is.