Next steps with Cultivar from this spring

[JasonRedwood]

Hey everyone!

So, i am fairly new to Bonsai - I have a weeping salix caprea that i bought at a store - then i started another willow from cuttings that's doing very well.

Additionally, this spring i dug up four small maples intend on making a forest out of them at some point. I have been growing these guys indoors under lights in terracotta pots in ordinary potting soil and they're doing fine - they're actually pretty vigorous.

My question is this, and i'll attach pictures below - what are my next steps in starting to train these trees? My biggest one already has a good trunk size for what i want to do - the smaller ones will need to catch up a bit. What i'm mostly wondering about is getting branch ramification off the trunk.

What should i be doing right now during the growing season? I'm letting them grow pretty freely - just pinching some growth and removing extra big leaves.

Aditionally, what should i be doing after winter dormancy? Should i chop the trunk and cut back the existing branches? I want to develop more branches total.

Any advice is welcome, but i'll add a disclaimer here: Yes i know bonsai will not grow ideally indoors - i am aware of that, and within the next year will have the ability to keep them outside. Re-stating this is unnecessary, i am aware of it.

The image on the far left is the tree whose trunk i'm happy with.

Also, if anyone could tell me which species these are that would be great, i am not that good at taxonomy.

Thanks!

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Hey Jason,

Honestly I wouldn't do anything until these trees are outdoors. Ramification indoors, especially with non-indoor trees, is difficult. Unless, of course, you have bright lighting. I'd just keep these healthy for the time and worry about ramification when they're outdoors.

 

[rockm]

Hey everyone!

My question is this, and i'll attach pictures below - what are my next steps in starting to train these trees? My biggest one already has a good trunk size for what i want to do - the smaller ones will need to catch up a bit. What i'm mostly wondering about is getting branch ramification off the trunk.

What should i be doing right now during the growing season? I'm letting them grow pretty freely - just pinching some growth and removing extra big leaves.

Aditionally, what should i be doing after winter dormancy? Should i chop the trunk and cut back the existing branches? I want to develop more branches total.

Any advice is welcome, but i'll add a disclaimer here: Yes i know bonsai will not grow ideally indoors - i am aware of that, and within the next year will have the ability to keep them outside. Re-stating this is unnecessary, i am aware of it.

The image on the far left is the tree whose trunk i'm happy with.

Also, if anyone could tell me which species these are that would be great, i am not that good at taxonomy.

Thanks!

View attachment 78475 View attachment 78476 View attachment 78477

Ryan's advice is spot on. These need no "training" at this point, even the relatively larger tree. Developing ramification is the LAST step in bonsai development. You're about eight steps away from that at this point with these small seedlings.

Being aware of the indoor issue, unfortunately, won't help these trees. I would advise getting these outdoors IMMEDIATELY, regardless. Saplings of any species will mostly grow vigorously given even the minimum of resources. Don't be fooled, these WILL develop issues inside, with the low humidity and extremely low light (even the supplemental light you are providing isn't anywhere near what the sun provides) inside.

Here in the Northern hemisphere, trees outside are mostly out of their most active growth phase and have begun the slow slide towards autumn and winter dormancy. Temperate zone trees outside (and these are temperate zone maples, probably red maple Acer rubrum) begin their cycle of preparing for winter after the summer solstice, with shortening daylight hours. The gradual shortening of light, "tells" the trees it's time to begin preparations. Without that decreasing cycle inside, they continue to grow and not prepare themselves. You can't replicate the decreasing day length and sun intensity without expensive and more sophisticated lighting. Even if you could, it would be a crap shoot, since repeated shallow frosts also play an important role in dormancy preparations.

Suddenlty plunking them outside in the fall, hoping they will somehow enter dormancy and survive the winter will kill them during the winter if not outright from a frost or freeze because they haven't 'hardened off" to handle lower temperatures. And no, keeping them inside for the winter will also lead to a slow death. Inside they will continue to grow for a while, until they wear themselves out because of lack of dormancy.
Sorry to be such a bummer, but keeping temperate zone trees inside is not an easy thing to do, if it's possible at all.

 

[JasonRedwood]

Guys, thanks for your input - but neither of you answered my question, despite my disclaimer at the bottom.

I am not growing these trees with ignorance. I know putting them outside will be best. I do have bright lighting inside providing in upwards of 20,000 lux. Also, i do understand the dormancy requirements of the plants. I did not state i was just going to throw them outside in fall- i understand that it is a gradual process triggered by light and temperatures.

I know growing Bonsai indoor is not the norm - but that was not the question i asked here. I specifically want to know what my next steps are with these plants regardless of their location. Some people have had success growing bonsai indoors, and i indent to try for the next year or so.

Advice on my question would be most welcome, but please accept that i am growing these guys indoors, even if it's not what you would do. - i do understand the difficulties keeping the trees indoors, you need not repeat yourself.

I don't mean to sound brash, and i really appreciate the comments - but my question has still not been answered.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Your next step in training these trees is nothing. They're far too small and the leaves look too large to make convincing small bonsai. You said you were wondering about branch ramification, I answered that.

 

[rockm]

Guys, thanks for your input - but neither of you answered my question, despite my disclaimer at the bottom.

I am not growing these trees with ignorance. I know putting them outside will be best. I do have bright lighting inside providing in upwards of 20,000 lux. Also, i do understand the dormancy requirements of the plants. I did not state i was just going to throw them outside in fall- i understand that it is a gradual process triggered by light and temperatures.

I know growing Bonsai indoor is not the norm - but that was not the question i asked here. I specifically want to know what my next steps are with these plants regardless of their location. Some people have had success growing bonsai indoors, and i indent to try for the next year or so.

Advice on my question would be most welcome, but please accept that i am growing these guys indoors, even if it's not what you would do. - i do understand the difficulties keeping the trees indoors, you need not repeat yourself.

I don't mean to sound brash, and i really appreciate the comments - but my question has still not been answered.

The answer to your development question depends on healthy trees. Like it or not, the next development step IS ENITRELY DEPENDENT ON MOVING THESE OUTSIDE, even with the lighting. These trees need to grow as vigorously as possible to proceed with development (and even outside in ideal conditions they won't be ready for much of anything other than simple growing out). Artistically, their trunks are far too thin to visually support much of a bonsai image. horticulturally, they will die if kept inside.

There will be no "next step" if they are dead. Good luck with the 20,000 lumens or lux, or whatever, it's still not adequate for healthy growth much less the lighting needed for bonsai development...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

so I am fairly new to bonsai.

what are my next steps in starting to train these trees?

I am not growing these trees with ignorance.

This is like saying "I have a 2-qt goldfish bowl, and I want to start a saltwater reef tank in it. I understand it's not ideal. I cannot change that parameter, but how do I start anyway?" This approach will not work well on this forum, because the right answer is, start with the proper tank, and do some homework.

Here is the answer to your question, "what are my next steps in starting to train these trees?":
1. Read about bonsai; styles, training techniques, types of trees used, soil, water, and feeding.
2. Learn how trees grow. This will help you understand the effects (and the reasons) for pruning, and what is necessary to keep them healthy.
3. Establish a vision for your bonsai. What do you want it to look like? How can you use training techniques to get there?
4. Look at lots of photos of good bonsai. Observe nebari, trunk sizes, shapes, basic branch structure, proportions, and balance.
5. Find a local club and mentor who has trees you admire. MN is a big state, but we have a couple talented and active members here from MN; @crust and @fourteener.

 

[rockm]

"Some people have had success growing bonsai indoors, and i indent to try for the next year or so."

Are you conflating growing TROPICAL species indoors with growing temperate trees inside? yeah, tropical species have been grown inside for quite a while. Temperate trees, not so much.

 

[JasonRedwood]

Ok, i give up. Guys, im not a lazy ameteur. I am posting here specifically because i cannot find the answer to my question in books or online. What i want know is, while i let the trees grow out what should i be doing to produce more branches. Simply saying " you.re doing everything wrong by keeping them indoors" and "good luck with your lights" is condecending and not helpful.

I honestly have had good experiences on this forum, but it seems everyone is more concerned about exactly how they would grow trees Instead of what the thread is specifically about.

To answer the above question- no i am not confusing mapleswith with tropicals- i have done my homework, and there has been success growing maples indoors, and even doing dormancy in the fridge. I wouldn.t be growing these if nobody has done it indoors.

How about instead of just telling me i'm wrong to grow these indoors, give me something constructive- or don't comment at all. I mean really, i stated in the origional post that i've heard it all before. I don't have he ability to put them outside, and no amount of arguing with me about it ia going to change that.

So please, if you have something helpful to add, please do.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Well, I thought by telling you you can't grow maples indoors and that they should be outdoors, that was constructive. Guess not. However, seeing as you can't do that the point is moot.

As stated, I would not worry about branching. These trees are still too small for the leaf size. Focus on keeping them healthy, as these next few months will be challenging, as the trees should be entering dormancy. I have heard of rare success with fridge dormancy, but 9 times out of 10 it fails.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I honestly have had good experiences on this forum, but it seems everyone is more concerned about exactly how they would grow trees Instead of what the thread is specifically about.

To answer the above question- no i am not confusing mapleswith with tropicals- i have done my homework, and there has been success growing maples indoors, and even doing dormancy in the fridge. I wouldn.t be growing these if nobody has done it indoors.

Can you link your sources? Genuinely curious.

 

[coh]

I'm usually the one who posts the link to Jack Wikle when people come on asking about growing things indoors. I'm all for trying new things. That said, maples are one of the trees that supposedly don't really work well indoors long term. Maybe if you go the fridge route in the winter, but then you have to be careful about drying them out too much.

That said...if your living situation requires that you keep these maples indoors for the next year or so, my only advice would be to not worry about branch ramification or any of that. Just concentrate on keeping them alive and healthy. I wouldn't remove any overly large leaves...why would you want to do that? The leaves are probably large because they're not getting enough light, so leave them alone to make use of whatever light they are getting. If they get too tall to fit under the lights, cut back the tops. That's about all I would be doing.

Good luck!

Chris

 

[JasonRedwood]

Ryan, it was quite some time ago, but i will go back and find what i read about growing plants indoors. I want to point out that this is not a long term plan- in A year or so, i will be looking for a place with a safe outdoor space, deck or patio. My struggle is that i want to start plants now, but only have indoor space. If they die i will start again, but i want to make the best of what i have now.

Also, i'm not doing fridge dormancy, i do have a place to keep them outside (or in a garage because of our harsh winters) for the winter. The reason they are not there now is because they require too frequent care. During dormancy, driving out once a week to check on them will be easier (a familiy member will also keep an eye on them). I only brought up fridge dormancy because i've read of some success with it.

I really don't mean to be argumentative, but i do understand the issues with keeping the plants inaide and am taking whatever lengths i can to help them.

so a follow up question- specifically for the bigger tree (whos trunk is about the size i want), should i just let them grow rampant for the rest of the year? Not pinching or removing any leaves? I have been "lightly" removing leaves to get some backbudding from the trunk, which has worked on all the trees- they all started with a single branch and 2 leaves this spring. Removing some bigger leaves at the node has stimulated more leaf growth as well-but should i stop that?

 

[JasonRedwood]

Chris, thank you. As i was typing to ryan you sort of answered one of my questions. Also, can anyone tell the species from the photo? Maple are hard to classify For me.

 

[coh]

Jason, I have no idea what species they are. Red maple? Amur? Not familiar with what lives in that area.

Just so we're all on the same page...after rereading the thread, it sounds like your plan is the following:
1) grow trees indoors under lights the rest of this summer
2) place trees in a garage for winter dormancy
3) grow trees indoors under lights next spring/summer
4) plant or move trees outdoors full time at some point thereafter

Is that correct? So you're not going to try to keep the trees growing under lights through this winter?

If the above is accurate...I guess what I would do is just let them grow as much as possible the rest of this season, then after winter you can cut the tops back and if the trees are strong enough, you should get some backbudding. I've never tried this with something like a maple. I think you'll just have to watch the trees and adjust your approach according to how well they are growing.

In any event, chances are you won't get much trunk thickening growing them indoors so you probably don't have to worry about that.

Chris

 

[JasonRedwood]

Chris, yes- that is my tentative plan. There may be anothe year indoors if i do not move next spring, which i know will be crappy for them. And no, im not going to grow them under lights in the winter, they will have dormancy- likely for the length they would naturally have here.

As for the species- almost all maples grow here (aside from the Chinese and Japanese varieties) they could be amur, which is what i thought, or red. i was just curious

 

[michaelj]

Ok, i give up. Guys, im not a lazy ameteur. I am posting here specifically because i cannot find the answer to my question in books or online. What i want know is, while i let the trees grow out what should i be doing to produce more branches. Simply saying " you.re doing everything wrong by keeping them indoors" and "good luck with your lights" is condecending and not helpful.

I suspect that the reason you are not seeing the answer in books or online is that the people who tried this failed, and didn't find it worthwhile to write about it. There was a guy who was growing maple seedlings inside under grow lights, and he was keeping people informed until they got to be about 4 to 6 inches and then he posted no further updates and sort of disappeared. I know guys who grow other stuff indoors, and one of them stuck a couple of maples in there, mostly to be funny, and I remember them being sickly looking, with long internodes. My suspicion is that attempts to ramify while growing this kind of species indoors might be detrimental to the tree. But I'd love to see the results of your experiment especially if you tried different things with your different trees.

Topping them every once in a while will usually force new buds to appear on the trunk. The usual way to ramify existing branches is to let them grow out to 5 or 6 nodes, and then cut back to the first or second node. I can't imagine why growing indoors would be any different. Except that, if the tree isn't getting enough light energy, that could take a long time, and cutting back could leave your tree too weak. Assess the tree as you go. If it looks too weak, don't cut it. Just keep it alive and worry about ramification when it gets outside and regains its health.

 

[rockm]

Ok, i give up. Guys, im not a lazy ameteur. I am posting here specifically because i cannot find the answer to my question in books or online. What i want know is, while i let the trees grow out what should i be doing to produce more branches. Simply saying " you.re doing everything wrong by keeping them indoors" and "good luck with your lights" is condecending and not helpful.

I honestly have had good experiences on this forum, but it seems everyone is more concerned about exactly how they would grow trees Instead of what the thread is specifically about.

To answer the above question- no i am not confusing mapleswith with tropicals- i have done my homework, and there has been success growing maples indoors, and even doing dormancy in the fridge. I wouldn.t be growing these if nobody has done it indoors.

How about instead of just telling me i'm wrong to grow these indoors, give me something constructive- or don't comment at all. I mean really, i stated in the origional post that i've heard it all before. I don't have he ability to put them outside, and no amount of arguing with me about it ia going to change that.

So please, if you have something helpful to add, please do.

Here's the thing, you have asked a question, that is a circle jerk.

"What i want know is, while i let the trees grow out what should i be doing to produce more branches?"
The answer is you can't grow a tree out and produce more branches. Well, you can, but you're wasting your time with both. You do one or the other. Doing both, slows down or negates both...

At this point in developing your seedlings, branching is not really part of the program. Those trunks won't support branching visually anyway, even if you can get decent backbudding on such a young trunk under such poor lighting.
To produce branching and ramification takes pruning back into mature wood to activate resting buds (BTW, that pruning slows or stops trunk development depending on where it is).

At this point, your tiny seedlings don't have much, in some cases ANY, mature wood. Mature wood develops and contains "resting buds" just under the bark that are activated by wounds above. That is the primary driver that bonsaists use to produce branching in a bonsai. You can just let a tree grow until it develops branches on its own, but those branches will be too high to use in the bonsai. You chop the trunk to push that branching lower down. An important part of ramification is LIGHT, which pushes the tight growth that is required to create a decent bonsai.

You haven't done much homework, or you'd know some of these basics.

Ask one of those people who has used a refrigerator for dormancy if they still have their tree. If they do ask to see a picture of it...Just because someone on the Internet claims they've done it, doesn't mean it's a) true, b) effective c) sustainable.

And just for shits and giggles--why are you doing this now, when you will have a much better shot at actually doing it successfully next year when you have access to the outdoors? This material is pretty readily available, mostly unremarkable, cheap or free?

 

[JasonRedwood]

Michaelj,

I wasn't even specifically asking about trees indoors - I was looking for info as to how to begin the transition from seedling to bonsai - as the larger tree does not need any more trunk growth. I was asking about this in general, with the point in mind that they would be outside next year. Everyone got hung up on growing them inside.

After this summer is over, as the plants go into dormancy i am going to take some comprehensive photos and start a tread about what has and has not worked indoors which i assume will get as much crap as this one - but it's still interesting. I have had people tell me the trees won't last even a month indoors because of humidity - what they neglect to ask is if i have air conditioning - which i do not, so my apartment hovers around 75% humidity in summer.

Anyway, yes - i think i will try topping them instead of pinching out new growth for the rest of this year - maybe cut them down one time before dormancy starts. That is the type of answer i was looking for, thank you.

Just as an interesting fact - some of the internodes can be as close as 1/4 of an inch - while some extend much further. If they star indoors another year, i will add a second light. They do also get some good light from a window a foot away as well - but the intensity drops off fast through glass.

 

[JasonRedwood]

Rokm,

i am growing them now because i want to - your time is wasted trying to convince me it will never work or to wait until next year. My entire point here was that i have heard all of these concerns before, and i am still trying. Why not support a fellow enthusiast, rather than just tell them it's never going to work?

Also, again you're being condescending. I am fully aware that the internet is not always true. You don't need to add your two cents about what is or is not a good source. I simply stated that i have read that there is success - nothing more.

I will say it again, instead of just attacking what i want to do, and me personally, maybe change your tone to be more helpful and less agitated and snobby. I have done a lot of homework on this - i have read many, many websites - i own and have read three books - which all largely say different things about this subject. It is completely inappropriate to just assume everyone on the internet is an idiot. the only reason i asked here is because i could not find a straight answer, and this forum has been helpful in the past. Maybe instead of just stating that i "haven't done much homework", you could clarify and add your input. What you said there was helpful, and i appreciate it - but your tone is not appreciated.

Now, i am sick of arguing and defending my actions to you - Others have offered suggestions and understanding for my situation - if you cannot do that please just ignore and/or leave the thread. I am only asking for assistance, not persecution for wanting to grow my trees my way.

anyway, for those of you who offered suggestions, thank you. What i think i may do is let the trees grow as freely as possible - and if they get too tall just cutting them back before fall. Hopefully early next spring i'll have a place to put them outside right as they come out of dormancy.

It may be too early to think about this - but at the end of dormancy, should i prune these back pretty hard? The smaller trees still need good trunks - which i'm sure will take a few more years at least. But what about the larger tree?