Next time...

Minnesota Madman

Yamadori
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I love sifting soil amendments, but damn! Lava that comes in from an online source, saying it's 3/8- and it's more like 1"- when you get it... Next time, I'm not horsing around. I'm trying Bonsai Jack. I know this sounds like a plug, but I've been chipping, sifting, sorting, washing, and organizing soil components for weeks now, and I'm getting to a point where I have to just walk away for a bit. I'm on lava rock that's anywhere from dust to 1.5" mostly in the 5/8" range and I seem to be lacking a rock crusher in my tool shed. Everything I hear about Bonsai Jack sounds great, and their prices are pretty reasonable for a small time guy like me. Next time...
 

davetree

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If you are a member of the Minnesota Bonsai society you can buy soil components at a low price. They buy in bulk so you can get cheap bags of lava, pumice and akadama. Check their website.
 

sorce

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Or Use Napa #8822.

Sorce
 

just.wing.it

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I use Bonsai Jack's Lava Pumice and Fir Bark, all are pre-sifted and have basically no need for sifting....but I still do it.
Definitely good stuff.
I also think that Napa 8822 and Turface MVP are good additions in smaller quantities, they tend to have a smaller particle size.
 

Minnesota Madman

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Or Use Napa #8822.

Sorce

And there it is... I see you pounding the 8822 into the community's awareness. I am definitely aware of DE, and I have a bag. (somewhat thanks to your dedication to it!) Some of the greatest considerations when it comes to substrates is cost and availability, and 8822 has got a lot of other components beat on those fronts. I'm confident in it's properties as an amendment, or even as a whole substrate. The trouble I'm having with it is the physical size. When mixing with other popular available components, and its' average particle size of 1/8" - 3/16" it tends to fill in the gaps rather than maintain positive air spaces in the substrate. Do you know of any DE with a slightly larger particle size? Somebody a while back was taking pre-orders on a shipment of Axis, which is supposed to have a larger size...

I'm glad to have you respond, Sorce. I know you've been a part of some Grey Owl threads, and I happen to have one, so feel free to jump in and drop any knowledge you have on that! It was repotted back in 2016 with 3/8 pumice, 3/8 lava, 3/8 granite and ug... Akadama. The Akadama is mush now. Lots of it has escaped the drain holes as silt, and what's left is clogging up the air spaces at the top layer of substrate, so I get really inconsistent water and fertilizer distribution. If you've got any advice on a good substrate mix, I'd appreciate anything you have to share. Right now, I'm leaning toward all 1/4" : granite, black lava and 15-20% pine bark. Calcined clay or DE are still up for debate as an addition, because of particle size availability and whether or not it needs more water retention than what the lava and bark will provide.
 

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Minnesota Madman

Yamadori
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I use Bonsai Jack's Lava Pumice and Fir Bark, all are pre-sifted and have basically no need for sifting....but I still do it.
Definitely good stuff.
I also think that Napa 8822 and Turface MVP are good additions in smaller quantities, they tend to have a smaller particle size.

I have a lot of confidence in calcined clay as partial or whole substrate components, but yeah.. The small particle size creates a dilemma. For me anyway. If you're mixing up a batch and everything else is 1/4" my way of thinking is that small particles like MVP or 8822 will do more for filling in gaps than maintaining positive and uniform air spaces in the substrate. I may be alone on this, but if anybody can prove me wrong, I'll listen...

I've heard before about how their product contains so few fines that it's a waste to sift. Like I was saying in the original post, I love the sifting/sorting/packing part of this hobby - I just ran into a snag when I realized I don't have a good way to crush rocks. . Jack's is great for so many people who dread that part of the hobby, or just plain don't want to invest in wood chippers and screens and the like.

How are you feeling about the price compared to buying a bag of fir bark and doing all the labor yourself?
 

Minnesota Madman

Yamadori
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If you are a member of the Minnesota Bonsai society you can buy soil components at a low price. They buy in bulk so you can get cheap bags of lava, pumice and akadama. Check their website.

Thanks for the heads up on that. I wasn't aware that was a thing.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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cost and availabilit

The reason I use it...
Sustainability.

I never want to get into a position where I cant get something, then all of a sudden I have a great tree die because I had to use something unfamiliar.

I just grow what grows well in DE.

Turns out just about everything will!

Just had to stop being afraid to flood flood stuff. Autowater for one hour at 2pm is grand!

That and Not repotting in spring has my ability up.

Soil First.

Seems everything that Has this "war" thing on forums is best like that.
Oil...use one and stick with it for the bike.

Oil dry
..lol! Works too!

Sorce
 

Minnesota Madman

Yamadori
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I have a lot of confidence in calcined clay as partial or whole substrate components, but yeah.. The small particle size creates a dilemma. For me anyway. If you're mixing up a batch and everything else is 1/4" my way of thinking is that small particles like MVP or 8822 will do more for filling in gaps than maintaining positive and uniform air spaces in the substrate. I may be alone on this, but if anybody can prove me wrong, I'll listen...

I've heard before about how their product contains so few fines that it's a waste to sift. Like I was saying in the original post, I love the sifting/sorting/packing part of this hobby - I just ran into a snag when I realized I don't have a good way to crush rocks. . Jack's is great for so many people who dread that part of the hobby, or just plain don't want to invest in wood chippers and screens and the like.

How are you feeling about the price compared to buying a bag of fir bark and doing all the labor yourself?

The whole thing about MVP and DE being more like 1/8" - 3/16" has me wondering, especially with guys like Sorce using DE exclusively on some of his trees with success, what IS the optimal particle size? I don't have enough experiential knowledge to know one way or the other, so I rely heavily on hard data. Anybody have any papers published on this, or know of any threads or magazine articles that talk about particle size? 1/4" sure seems to be the common number I see around, but why?
 

Shinjuku

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I don’t have any hard data. Here’s what I do know. When I was in Japan visiting bonsai nurseries, I noticed that all of the “finished” trees had pretty small soil particle size, about 1/8 of an inch.

I’ve read in various places that small soil size promotes smaller, finer roots, which is good for trees in refinement. They also say that a larger particle size, 1/4 inch or so, promotes larger roots, which is better for growing bulk in trees.

One other factor is water retention. Smaller soil particle size will retain more water than a larger size.
 
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