No/Low Nitrogen Fertilizer

BeebsBonsai

Shohin
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Hey fellow Nuts,

With fall coming up, I am trying to get my ducks in a row when it comes to fertilization. I already have a bag of bio-gold for all of my coniferous species, but am having trouble finding a good choice for my Trident Maple. I know that using a normal 5-5-5 solid organic mix isn't the best choice because if Tridents have enough Nitrogen and a warm spell, they can push another flush of growth very late.
What do you guys use for your Trident/Japanese Maples in the Fall to prevent that far too late flush? Ideally what I would like is a solid, organic, no/low nitrogen feed. Does such a thing exist? If not, please recommend only organic water-in fertilizers. Thanks.
 

Paradox

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I stop fertilizing usually by the end of September. If the leaves start to change color earlier, I stop then. I leave my tridents out until they experience mild frost and all their leaves have fallen. If temps are going to drop to 35, I bring them in.

I have not seen (or noticed) a late flush of growth and we have had 60 degrees on Christmas day.

Tridents are tough, much tougher than people give them credit for.

I think the fall, low N thing is a bit of a myth honestly.

I use fish and seaweed emulsion every other week. You could probably start doing half strength in September if you're worried about them having too much nitrogen.
 

GrimLore

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A bit confused on this one. It is my understanding and past experience that Tridents need a lot of Nitrogen when young and potted. Past pre-bonsai and into finishing stages is when to cut it back on Nitrogen a bit for smaller foliage...

Grimmy
 

Paradox

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A bit confused on this one. It is my understanding and past experience that Tridents need a lot of Nitrogen when young and potted. Past pre-bonsai and into finishing stages is when to cut it back on Nitrogen a bit for smaller foliage...

Grimmy


What I have been taught is that we should withhold fertilizer in the spring until the major flush of growth in the spring hardens off. Pinch new growth after 2 sets of leaves to promote short internodes. Then fertilize as normal til fall. I suppose you could also do half strength if the tree is far along in development. Keep pinching as needed because sometimes they do keep growing.

As with everything, it's a balance and finding the right one for your trees.

This is what we did to one of my tridents in my study group.

In June we cut the big leaves in half, we folded them in half and cut the end so they look like a diamond. This promoted new growth with smaller leaves. The key to smaller foliage is ramification.

In early August, I cut all the big leaves off leaving the smaller ones there.

Jonas also describes some of this on his Bonsai Tonight blog. If you havent, I highly recommend registering so you get email articles. They are very good.
 

Dav4

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Hey fellow Nuts,

With fall coming up, I am trying to get my ducks in a row when it comes to fertilization. I already have a bag of bio-gold for all of my coniferous species, but am having trouble finding a good choice for my Trident Maple. I know that using a normal 5-5-5 solid organic mix isn't the best choice because if Tridents have enough Nitrogen and a warm spell, they can push another flush of growth very late.
What do you guys use for your Trident/Japanese Maples in the Fall to prevent that far too late flush? Ideally what I would like is a solid, organic, no/low nitrogen feed. Does such a thing exist? If not, please recommend only organic water-in fertilizers. Thanks.
I feed my tridents and everything else my balanced ferts until the growing season is clearly over. I've never had a trident push fall growth that got nipped by the cold.
 

rockm

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Hey fellow Nuts,

With fall coming up, I am trying to get my ducks in a row when it comes to fertilization. I already have a bag of bio-gold for all of my coniferous species, but am having trouble finding a good choice for my Trident Maple. I know that using a normal 5-5-5 solid organic mix isn't the best choice because if Tridents have enough Nitrogen and a warm spell, they can push another flush of growth very late.
What do you guys use for your Trident/Japanese Maples in the Fall to prevent that far too late flush? Ideally what I would like is a solid, organic, no/low nitrogen feed. Does such a thing exist? If not, please recommend only organic water-in fertilizers. Thanks.
HAHAHAHAHA...um (sorry) no, you're not going to "force" late growth with 5-5-5 organic pellets. You're not going to do anything much with that except probably maintain an older tree's shape.

I plan on feeding my trees balanced chem ferts into late October, until the first frosts arrive. Some trees could put on late growth, but it's mostly because of warming soil, not because of fertilizer. Trees don't use what they don't need. You don't need low N, High K fert in the fall.
 

BeebsBonsai

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@rockm I don't use chem fertilizers. The organic solid feed has done very well. I don't water in, except for occasional augmentation with superthrive. I am a Mirai subscriber, and of course, as one, I believe in the use of only organic feed. I have also read the book by Peter Adams on Japanese Maples and Tridents. In it, he stresses the importance of using a low nitrogen feed in the fall to prevent this kind of growth. I made sure to include the note about heat being a part of it as well, if we get a warm spell.

But are there any organic solid, or in general organic feeds with no nitrogen?
 

BeebsBonsai

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I feed my tridents and everything else my balanced ferts until the growing season is clearly over. I've never had a trident push fall growth that got nipped by the cold.

By until the growing season is over, do you mean after the tree stops producing new growth, or when it gets cold enough that you are comfortable knowing the tree isn't growing anymore? Just for clarity.
 

coh

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I fertilize right up through October, maybe even the early part of November. Plants usually go into winter shelter here around or just after Thanksgiving. I use a combination of organics in tea bags, and powdered inorganic fertilizers. Late in the season, I stop applying organics since they break down much more slowly in the cooler conditions.
 

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@rockm I don't use chem fertilizers. The organic solid feed has done very well. I don't water in, except for occasional augmentation with superthrive. I am a Mirai subscriber, and of course, as one, I believe in the use of only organic feed. I have also read the book by Peter Adams on Japanese Maples and Tridents. In it, he stresses the importance of using a low nitrogen feed in the fall to prevent this kind of growth. I made sure to include the note about heat being a part of it as well, if we get a warm spell.

But are there any organic solid, or in general organic feeds with no nitrogen?

When I was new to bonsai, I tried to find a low nitrogen fertilizer because I read that you needed to use that in the fall. I never found one of any kind so I gave up and just fed a reduced amount of regular fertilizer.

After 6 years I've never had any of the issues you describe.

Trees will stop growing when the temperature and light levels drop in the fall. Light and temperature (mostly light) are what tells the tree to grow or stop growing, not nitrogen. Nitrogen is one of the fuels the tree uses to grow. You could dump any amount of nitrogen on them and it won't force them to grow if their physiology says its time to stop.

As @rockm said, they will not use what they don't need.
 
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rockm

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@rockm I don't use chem fertilizers. The organic solid feed has done very well. I don't water in, except for occasional augmentation with superthrive. I am a Mirai subscriber, and of course, as one, I believe in the use of only organic feed. I have also read the book by Peter Adams on Japanese Maples and Tridents. In it, he stresses the importance of using a low nitrogen feed in the fall to prevent this kind of growth. I made sure to include the note about heat being a part of it as well, if we get a warm spell.

But are there any organic solid, or in general organic feeds with no nitrogen?
I hear you, BUT the bug in the ointment with Mirai is--do you have Mirai-level trees? you may "believe" in only organic, but your trees don't give a crap. N is N, P is P and K is K no matter where they come from.

Sorry, but Mirai trees are NOT like the vast majority of bonsaiist's trees.

They are typically old or ancient and mostly need refining, not wholesale development as most bonsaiists' trees do.

Poo pooing "chem" fertilizer shuts down what is probably the best avenue for your trees. Organics are nice, but they're mostly used to avoid overgrowth in established trees. With developing trees you WANT OVERGROWTH to develop new branching, increase trunks, etc.

Peter Adams books, for the most part, are at least a decade old...
 

Dav4

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By until the growing season is over, do you mean after the tree stops producing new growth, or when it gets cold enough that you are comfortable knowing the tree isn't growing anymore? Just for clarity.
Typically leaf fall for deciduous trees.
 

rockm

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By until the growing season is over, do you mean after the tree stops producing new growth, or when it gets cold enough that you are comfortable knowing the tree isn't growing anymore? Just for clarity.
this misunderstands how trees work. It is not temperature that slows growth in trees as fall approaches, but daylength. You trees began preparing for fall back in June with the passing of the Summer Solstice and the days began getting shorter. The shortening days of mid to late summer and early autumn tell the tree to stop pushing a lot of new growth in favor of storing reserves in the roots. Root growth continues well into fall and even into early winter, even when there are no leaves, if the soil isn't too frozen.
 

BeebsBonsai

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Typically leaf fall for deciduous trees.

Thanks Dav4. I guess I can just try using BioGold this year, and then see if there are any negative effects, then change it if I see that additional unwanted flush. Definitely want to keep the tree producing roots at this time, but really want to avoid the tree spending resources on new leaves that will not have enough time to get the tree back to energy positive. That is what I am most worried about with using nitrogen in the fall.
 

BeebsBonsai

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When I was new to bonsai, I tried to find a low nitrogen fertilizer because I read that you needed to use that in the fall. I never found one of any kind so I gave up and just fed a reduced amount of regular fertilizer.

After 6 years I've never had any of the issues you describe.

Trees will stop growing when the temperature and light levels drop in the fall. Light and temperature (mostly light) are what tells the tree to grow or stop growing, not nitrogen. Nitrogen is one of the fuels the tree uses to grow. You could dump any amount of nitrogen on them and it won't force them to grow if their physiology says its time to stop.

As @rockm said, they will not use what they don't need.

I'll give it the old college go and trust in what you guys are saying. I'm still wary about chem ferts though. Not only for the plant, but we have a dog and I would hate to have my fertlization habits harm her.

@rockm have you tested the varying growth rates between chemical ferts and organic feeds? It would seem to me that having a consistent fertilizer decomposing and being watered in at every water could be just as effective as a chem fertilizer being applied once every two weeks. I am relatively new to bonsai, and finding all kinds of conflicting opinions online, as with anything. Just thinking about testing a variation of fertilizers in the future to test the difference. This maple in question is young, 3 yr old cutting, and is rapidly pushing growth with no fertilizer on the soil, as during the heat of the summer I didn't want to risk anything by adding fertilizer. It's grown a foot and a half in less than 2 months.
 

Paradox

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I'll give it the old college go and trust in what you guys are saying. I'm still wary about chem ferts though. Not only for the plant, but we have a dog and I would hate to have my fertlization habits harm her.

@rockm have you tested the varying growth rates between chemical ferts and organic feeds? It would seem to me that having a consistent fertilizer decomposing and being watered in at every water could be just as effective as a chem fertilizer being applied once every two weeks. I am relatively new to bonsai, and finding all kinds of conflicting opinions online, as with anything. Just thinking about testing a variation of fertilizers in the future to test the difference. This maple in question is young, 3 yr old cutting, and is rapidly pushing growth with no fertilizer on the soil, as during the heat of the summer I didn't want to risk anything by adding fertilizer. It's grown a foot and a half in less than 2 months.

Sounds like a healthy, vigorous maple doing what young maples do.
 

rockm

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I'll give it the old college go and trust in what you guys are saying. I'm still wary about chem ferts though. Not only for the plant, but we have a dog and I would hate to have my fertlization habits harm her.

@rockm have you tested the varying growth rates between chemical ferts and organic feeds? It would seem to me that having a consistent fertilizer decomposing and being watered in at every water could be just as effective as a chem fertilizer being applied once every two weeks. I am relatively new to bonsai, and finding all kinds of conflicting opinions online, as with anything. Just thinking about testing a variation of fertilizers in the future to test the difference. This maple in question is young, 3 yr old cutting, and is rapidly pushing growth with no fertilizer on the soil, as during the heat of the summer I didn't want to risk anything by adding fertilizer. It's grown a foot and a half in less than 2 months.
Yeah, chemical ferts are available immediately to the plant in higher concentration. Organics are not nearly as efficient at being available in the soil in amounts that can spur growth--which is why they're not as effective with developing trees and are used for older established plants that don't need that growth. For a cutting, I would be fertilizing the crap out of it with balanced "chemical" fertilizer.

Have YOU tried a "chemical" fert regime to see the differences? Might want to before swearing off of them...
 

rockm

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And no it ain't gonna hurt the dog. FWI, BioGold and some other prepared "organic" pellets from Japan have insecticide in them to keep the maggots down. Wouldn't want the dog to eat one of those...
 

Dav4

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And no it ain't gonna hurt the dog. FWI, BioGold and some other prepared "organic" pellets from Japan have insecticide in them to keep the maggots down. Wouldn't want the dog to eat one of those...
Heh heh. Back in the day, I used to make my own fert cakes using a recipe Michael Persiano espoused in Bonsai Today. Along with the various meals and powdered miracle gro, the recipe called for a certain amount of liquid Sevin to be mixed in. My dog at the time, a 140# mastiff, probably ate 15 or 20 0f the cakes in one sitting, though I didn't find out until the next day. If I recall, he was quite flatulent that evening, but that was the extent of the damage. He may have gotten into a few more cakes over the years, too... and he lived to be almost 14:D.
 
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