No/Low Nitrogen Fertilizer

[M. Frary]

dog at the time, a 140# mastiff, probably ate 15 or 20 0f the cakes in one sitting,

If I recall, he was quite flatulent that evening,

That's badass!

I pour the fertilizer to the trees until the leaves fall off.

 

[PiñonJ]

I hear you, BUT the bug in the ointment with Mirai is--do you have Mirai-level trees? you may "believe" in only organic, but your trees don't give a crap. N is N, P is P and K is K no matter where they come from.

Sorry, but Mirai trees are NOT like the vast majority of bonsaiist's trees.

They are typically old or ancient and mostly need refining, not wholesale development as most bonsaiists' trees do

Ryan has plenty of young trees at Mirai, you just won't see them on the website! He uses them for students to develop, or for forest plantings, or for grafting. He uses Biogold on everything, at least when they're in pots. I'll have to ask him if he does anything differently when they're in the ground. His philosophy is that the organic fertilizer creates a microbiome in the inorganic substrate that has multiple benefits for the tree. He also likes to simplify wherever possible. The only thing he varies is amount and frequency of application.

 

[M. Frary]

He also likes to simplify wherever possible

Nothing simpler than Miracle Grow.
It isn't fancy.
It isn't expensive.
It can be bought just about anywhere.
It won't make your dog fart.
It just simply works.

 

[PiñonJ]

Nothing simpler than Miracle Grow.
It isn't fancy.
It isn't expensive.
It can be bought just about anywhere.
It won't make your dog fart.
It just simply works.

Can't argue with that. I've used it in the past. But it does kill your moss!

 

[M. Frary]

Can't argue with that. I've used it in the past. But it does kill your moss!

Wreaks havoc on the moss. One of the best ways to get rid of it off the trunk too. No brushing. Just pouring.
I'm almost to the point of refinement of some trees so I will be cutting back on the dose for them at the appropriate times.
I have some Scots pines in development that would make an Eastern White Pine jealous of their needle length. From pouring the juice to them all growing season long for a few years.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

HAHAHAHAHA...um (sorry) no, you're not going to "force" late growth with 5-5-5 organic pellets. You're not going to do anything much with that except probably maintain an older tree's shape.

I plan on feeding my trees balanced chem ferts into late October, until the first frosts arrive. Some trees could put on late growth, but it's mostly because of warming soil, not because of fertilizer. Trees don't use what they don't need. You don't need low N, High K fert in the fall.

Hi BeebsBonsai,
I would like to offer my experience of 25 years in the landscape industry and Chem fertilisers. Yes, I am a total convert so can't offer an opinion about growing via organics and bonsai.
So my thinking is that traditional bonsai growing is based off the Japanese model, and nothing I have read compares growing trees in development in chem vs organic ferts.
As for how my industry works the control release fertilizers have totally transformed the pot growing Horticulture industry. The current product I am using gives you either 8-9 months release, or a 18-20 month green pellets. Also many other monthly combos available.
I think the beauty of these modern control release fertilisers is that they are SOIL TEMPERATURE based. Understanding that when the soil temperature ( of the pot culture) drops BELOW 15C (degrees) the fertiliser WON'T be released. Eg- late autumn through to very early Spring = no fert.

Unfortunately there is still a problem with soil temperature over 25C degrees with the fert being released more rapidly.

Not sure if this post will give me grief from traditional bonsai enthusiasts but hey this is my opinion.
Charles.

P.S. From down under so we do everything backwards anyway.

 

[rockm]

Ryan has plenty of young trees at Mirai, you just won't see them on the website! He uses them for students to develop, or for forest plantings, or for grafting. He uses Biogold on everything, at least when they're in pots. I'll have to ask him if he does anything differently when they're in the ground. His philosophy is that the organic fertilizer creates a microbiome in the inorganic substrate that has multiple benefits for the tree. He also likes to simplify wherever possible. The only thing he varies is amount and frequency of application.

The upshot here, if I'm reading this correctly, is that Ryan doesn't grow out individual trees from cuttings, nursery material or seed for bonsai necessarily, like most of us do. His work with that kind of material is supplemental to his primary focus on more mature, even ancient trees.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make to the OP is that "chemical" is not an evil thing. The OP seems to have some kind of fear that "chemical" equals "toxic" and "unnatural" --hence the fear that it will harm his dog. That is an assumption based on emotion, not on actual facts.

Chemical and organic ferts are no better or worse than one another. They are simply used for different purposes.

I use both for my trees and have for a very long time--I think it's longer than Ryan has been doing bonsai. Doesn't mean I'm an expert, or know more than Ryn, but it does mean I've seen what both can do over more than 20 years. I have found what works for me and my trees. I've seen fertilizing fads come and go. The "Superfeeding" program by Michael Persiano was one of those. Back then it was all the rage to pile fertilizer cakes three inches deep on the soil and dump twice-monthly doses of "chemical" ferts over them...That fell by the wayside...

There is significant and increasing "hocus pocus" when it comes to organic fert too, as people unfamiliar with bonsai transfer a bias for "natural" products to bonsai. That's unfortunate. It creates warped expectations and slows people down.

For instance, the thought that organics, and organics alone, create "microbiomes" in bonsai pots is a head shaker. I've been using "chemical" ferts on my oaks, hornbeam and a few other trees for years. I regularly get mushroom and myc growth on all of those trees. I have yet to see chemical fert kill off moss wholesale.

The program I'm using currently --after talking with bonsai nursery owners who have been growing and selling trees for 25 years now--is Jack's low Phosphorous (Peat lite) 20-10-20 formula at once a week half strength, along with a half teaspoon of Epsom salts per gallon every two weeks. I also use prepared pellets on some trees along with the program. The nursery owners do the exact same thing, only in bulk through a reservoir system at their facility. I've had excellent results so far. The low P keeps growth tighter, as P is responsible for extension growth. I tend to get shorter internodes between leaves on my oak, maples and elm. The Epsom salts supplement trace elements, particularly Magnesium.

The point of all this is that there are many ways to skin the fertilizer cat. Ryan is terrific, but slavishly adhering to his fertilizing regime could be counterproductive for a lot of people working with developing material. Using 5-5-5 "organic" (and organic is a pretty loose term for what goes into a lot of those prepared Japanese pellets, including BioGold), will simply not get you where you want to go with developing material. Discounting "chemical" ferts offhand because of an unsupported bias is not really a good thing to do.

and FWIW, here is a link to pics of my nursery friend's trees...you tell me what works and what doesn't

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/gardens-unlimited-the-official-thread.27745/

 

[PiñonJ]

The upshot here, if I'm reading this correctly, is that Ryan doesn't grow out individual trees from cuttings, nursery material or seed for bonsai necessarily, like most of us do. His work with that kind of material is supplemental to his primary focus on more mature, even ancient trees.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make to the OP is that "chemical" is not an evil thing. The OP seems to have some kind of fear that "chemical" equals "toxic" and "unnatural" --hence the fear that it will harm his dog. That is an assumption based on emotion, not on actual facts.

Chemical and organic ferts are no better or worse than one another. They are simply used for different purposes.

I use both for my trees and have for a very long time--I think it's longer than Ryan has been doing bonsai. Doesn't mean I'm an expert, or know more than Ryn, but it does mean I've seen what both can do over more than 20 years. I have found what works for me and my trees. I've seen fertilizing fads come and go. The "Superfeeding" program by Michael Persiano was one of those. Back then it was all the rage to pile fertilizer cakes three inches deep on the soil and dump twice-monthly doses of "chemical" ferts over them...That fell by the wayside...

There is significant and increasing "hocus pocus" when it comes to organic fert too, as people unfamiliar with bonsai transfer a bias for "natural" products to bonsai. That's unfortunate. It creates warped expectations and slows people down.

For instance, the thought that organics, and organics alone, create "microbiomes" in bonsai pots is a head shaker. I've been using "chemical" ferts on my oaks, hornbeam and a few other trees for years. I regularly get mushroom and myc growth on all of those trees. I have yet to see chemical fert kill off moss wholesale.

The program I'm using currently --after talking with bonsai nursery owners who have been growing and selling trees for 25 years now--is Jack's low Phosphorous (Peat lite) 20-10-20 formula at once a week half strength, along with a half teaspoon of Epsom salts per gallon every two weeks. I also use prepared pellets on some trees along with the program. The nursery owners do the exact same thing, only in bulk through a reservoir system at their facility. I've had excellent results so far. The low P keeps growth tighter, as P is responsible for extension growth. I tend to get shorter internodes between leaves on my oak, maples and elm. The Epsom salts supplement trace elements, particularly Magnesium.

The point of all this is that there are many ways to skin the fertilizer cat. Ryan is terrific, but slavishly adhering to his fertilizing regime could be counterproductive for a lot of people working with developing material. Using 5-5-5 "organic" (and organic is a pretty loose term for what goes into a lot of those prepared Japanese pellets, including BioGold), will simply not get you where you want to go with developing material. Discounting "chemical" ferts offhand because of an unsupported bias is not really a good thing to do.

and FWIW, here is a link to pics of my nursery friend's trees...you tell me what works and what doesn't

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/gardens-unlimited-the-official-thread.27745/

Sure, any type of fertilizer, used properly, will support growth. I was just reporting on Ryan's practice, which does result in very healthy trees.

 

[rockm]

Sure, any type of fertilizer, used properly, will support growth. I was just reporting on Ryan's practice, which does result in very healthy trees.

I'm not trashing Ryan Neal. Far from it. He understands the processes and science, as well as technique.

I just want people to think about what they're doing. There are many paths up the bonsai mountain.

 

[coh]

The upshot here, if I'm reading this correctly, is that Ryan doesn't grow out individual trees from cuttings, nursery material or seed for bonsai necessarily, like most of us do. His work with that kind of material is supplemental to his primary focus on more mature, even ancient trees.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make to the OP is that "chemical" is not an evil thing. The OP seems to have some kind of fear that "chemical" equals "toxic" and "unnatural" --hence the fear that it will harm his dog. That is an assumption based on emotion, not on actual facts.

Chemical and organic ferts are no better or worse than one another. They are simply used for different purposes.

I use both for my trees and have for a very long time--I think it's longer than Ryan has been doing bonsai. Doesn't mean I'm an expert, or know more than Ryn, but it does mean I've seen what both can do over more than 20 years. I have found what works for me and my trees. I've seen fertilizing fads come and go. The "Superfeeding" program by Michael Persiano was one of those. Back then it was all the rage to pile fertilizer cakes three inches deep on the soil and dump twice-monthly doses of "chemical" ferts over them...That fell by the wayside...

There is significant and increasing "hocus pocus" when it comes to organic fert too, as people unfamiliar with bonsai transfer a bias for "natural" products to bonsai. That's unfortunate. It creates warped expectations and slows people down.

For instance, the thought that organics, and organics alone, create "microbiomes" in bonsai pots is a head shaker. I've been using "chemical" ferts on my oaks, hornbeam and a few other trees for years. I regularly get mushroom and myc growth on all of those trees. I have yet to see chemical fert kill off moss wholesale.

The program I'm using currently --after talking with bonsai nursery owners who have been growing and selling trees for 25 years now--is Jack's low Phosphorous (Peat lite) 20-10-20 formula at once a week half strength, along with a half teaspoon of Epsom salts per gallon every two weeks. I also use prepared pellets on some trees along with the program. The nursery owners do the exact same thing, only in bulk through a reservoir system at their facility. I've had excellent results so far. The low P keeps growth tighter, as P is responsible for extension growth. I tend to get shorter internodes between leaves on my oak, maples and elm. The Epsom salts supplement trace elements, particularly Magnesium.

The point of all this is that there are many ways to skin the fertilizer cat. Ryan is terrific, but slavishly adhering to his fertilizing regime could be counterproductive for a lot of people working with developing material. Using 5-5-5 "organic" (and organic is a pretty loose term for what goes into a lot of those prepared Japanese pellets, including BioGold), will simply not get you where you want to go with developing material. Discounting "chemical" ferts offhand because of an unsupported bias is not really a good thing to do.

and FWIW, here is a link to pics of my nursery friend's trees...you tell me what works and what doesn't

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/gardens-unlimited-the-official-thread.27745/

Very similar to what I do. I've been using Grow More orchid fertilizer which is also 20-10-20 with the same nitrogen sources (no urea) and similar trace elements, as my main fertilizer for a few years now. I occasionally mix in other fertilizers (usually miracid or dynagro), will add micromax to pines in the spring and use home-made organic fert tea bags. I also run an injector that supplies a very weak fertilizer solution at every watering, at least when I remember to restock the reservoir. It seems to work quite well. I will confess that, at the recommendation of someone whose work I respect, a few years ago I bought a container of one of the blossom booster ferts, something like 12-55-6, for fall use. It probably doesn't do anything but I figure it probably doesn't hurt either. I will also sometimes throw some superthrive into the water when repotting (I've got a small bottle, so why not). There, I think I've confessed all my bonsai sins (hmm, maybe not, I still use turface occasionally)

The soil microbiome thing is interesting. I know Ryan is a true believer that organics help build up the soil biome, while chemical fertilizers destroy it. I have no idea where the truth lies. However, even the most sterile potting mix will quickly become seeded with microbes from a number of places. The root system itself will provide a lot, others will come along through the air, via birds, insects, etc. Even a mix with no organics will eventually develop some organic content as old roots die and decompose. I would be willing to believe that using organics fertilizers adds to and encourages these microbes, but I don't think using chemical fertilizers destroys them. I saw plenty of evidence of microbes, myco, etc in pots of trees before I started supplementing with organic fertilizers.

Have never seen chemical ferts destroy moss, but I don't apply at the high doses that some here are fond of.

 

[PiñonJ]

Have never seen chemical ferts destroy moss, but I don't apply at the high doses that some here are fond of.

Well, I think Mike uses Miracle-Gro instead of water!

 

[M. Frary]

some here are fond of.

Very fond. The moss is black sludge in a few days.
And if it kills beneficial microbes it doesn't show.

 

[rockm]

Very similar to what I do. I've been using Grow More orchid fertilizer which is also 20-10-20 with the same nitrogen sources (no urea) and similar trace elements, as my main fertilizer for a few years now. I occasionally mix in other fertilizers (usually miracid or dynagro), will add micromax to pines in the spring and use home-made organic fert tea bags. I also run an injector that supplies a very weak fertilizer solution at every watering, at least when I remember to restock the reservoir. It seems to work quite well. I will confess that, at the recommendation of someone whose work I respect, a few years ago I bought a container of one of the blossom booster ferts, something like 12-55-6, for fall use. It probably doesn't do anything but I figure it probably doesn't hurt either. I will also sometimes throw some superthrive into the water when repotting (I've got a small bottle, so why not). There, I think I've confessed all my bonsai sins (hmm, maybe not, I still use turface occasionally)

The soil microbiome thing is interesting. I know Ryan is a true believer that organics help build up the soil biome, while chemical fertilizers destroy it. I have no idea where the truth lies. However, even the most sterile potting mix will quickly become seeded with microbes from a number of places. The root system itself will provide a lot, others will come along through the air, via birds, insects, etc. Even a mix with no organics will eventually develop some organic content as old roots die and decompose. I would be willing to believe that using organics fertilizers adds to and encourages these microbes, but I don't think using chemical fertilizers destroys them. I saw plenty of evidence of microbes, myco, etc in pots of trees before I started supplementing with organic fertilizers.

Have never seen chemical ferts destroy moss, but I don't apply at the high doses that some here are fond of.

I believe organics can help the organic content of the soil ;-) too. I can't get my head around their use in free draining soils. Inorganic soils were designed to drain extremely well. That means ferts are flushed out very easily. Since organics rely on staying present in the soil to decompose to become available to the tree, I've always wondered how they remain long enough in those fast draining soils to do anything. If they build up organic content in the soil, doesn't that clog drainage up and kind of cancel it out? I don't know...

 

[PiñonJ]

I believe organics can help the organic content of the soil ;-) too. I can't get my head around their use in free draining soils. Inorganic soils were designed to drain extremely well. That means ferts are flushed out very easily. Since organics rely on staying present in the soil to decompose to become available to the tree, I've always wondered how they remain long enough in those fast draining soils to do anything. If they build up organic content in the soil, doesn't that clog drainage up and kind of cancel it out? I don't know...

I think the microbes populate the pores in the substrate and they help distribute the nutrients throughout the substrate. And (if I'm interpreting Ryan's explanation correctly) piles of organic fertilizer on the soil surface are reservoirs of nutrients that the microbial network helps process into the soil. I can personally attest that a tree which is growing fast uses up the piles faster than a tree which isn't, so something beyond dissolution and diffusion is moving that material into the soil.
And now, here's a short clip of @M. Frary's technique for applying Miracle-Gro:

 

[JudyB]

I also run an injector that supplies a very weak fertilizer solution at every watering, at least when I remember to restock the reservoir. It seems to work quite well.

Care to share details of this? I would like to add something like this to my auto watering system for when I am unavailable to hand water...

 

[coachspinks]

Ok, to summarize....
It's ok to use a balanced fertilizer until the growing season is over and that depends on the species but you do not have to cut N in the fall, right?
The jury is out on organic vs inorganic but you won't kill your trees if you use either properly.

Just an observation of mine, this summer I have used a fish emulsion diluted to half strength weekly. Sometimes twice a week since we had a lot of rain in Georgia. Most of my tress are in an inorganic Boon's type of mix. I have been really happy with the growth this summer.

 

[M. Frary]

I believe organics can help the organic content of the soil ;-) too. I

I think the microbes populate the pores in the substrate and they help distribute the nutrients throughout the substrate. And (if I'm interpreting Ryan's explanation correctly) piles of organic fertilizer on the soil surface are reservoirs of nutrients that the microbial network helps process into the soil. I can personally attest that a tree which is growing fast uses up the piles faster than a tree which isn't, so something beyond dissolution and diffusion is moving that material into the soil.
And now, here's a short clip of @M. Frary's technique for applying Miracle-Gro:

And it works wonderfully if I must say so myself.
And if it's true inorganic fertilizers kill microbes maybe,just maybe the trees don't even need them.
I know I'm not wrong. My trees show it. They aren't weak or they couldn't make it through winter here. They're just as healthy as anything in Mirai land.
I'm not saying Ryan Neil is wrong. Let's just say maybe he just hasn't been exposed to the different ways of doing things. Or hasnt seen first hand the results.
So maybe there are different ways to skin a cat. I'm not changing over to organics any time soon.

 

[coh]

Care to share details of this? I would like to add something like this to my auto watering system for when I am unavailable to hand water...

I've been using one of the EZ-FLO systems. It's a pressurized tank and really produces a "continuous dilution". You fill the tank with mixed fertilizer at a pretty high concentration, then during use water flows in and forces the mixture out, so the amount of fertilizer being injected continuously decreases with time (if that makes sense).

I would prefer to use a simple siphon injector like a hozon, but I've tried that and my water pressure is too low...it doesn't siphon. I would try that first as that will allow you to inject at a constant rate (until the reservoir runs out). I don't know how well either of these would work if you are using a drip or spray emitter setup, it depends on the water flow rate and pressure.

 

[JudyB]

I've been using one of the EZ-FLO systems. It's a pressurized tank and really produces a "continuous dilution". You fill the tank with mixed fertilizer at a pretty high concentration, then during use water flows in and forces the mixture out, so the amount of fertilizer being injected continuously decreases with time (if that makes sense).

I would prefer to use a simple siphon injector like a hozon, but I've tried that and my water pressure is too low...it doesn't siphon. I would try that first as that will allow you to inject at a constant rate (until the reservoir runs out). I don't know how well either of these would work if you are using a drip or spray emitter setup, it depends on the water flow rate and pressure.

how low is your water pressure? If you're not using drip or spray, what type of irrigation are you using? Thanks for the information!

 

[coh]

how low is your water pressure? If you're not using drip or spray, what type of irrigation are you using? Thanks for the information!

I don't know, I've never measured it. So I really don't know if the pressure is low at the hose bib, or if it's the length of hose (which can affect the way these things work), or the type of water wand I use. I do know that if I take off the wand and run the water at full stream, it will draw through the hozon. Maybe the hozon is defective, I've never tried another one so I can't say.

Right now I do my watering by hand, no drip/emitter system.