No more wire on procumbens?

Vance Wood

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I hope we agree there is a difference. I'm happy with my own personal definition which I won't go into again - to avoid more futile arguments, but I can confidently say it has nothing to do with wire.
Then what does it have to do with? Clip and grow, lead weights, let the tree do it's own thing and hope in the end it looks like something. Do you believe in imposing your own will in controlling growth to accomplish some sort of style goal? Maybe you feel with time a tree will turn out looking like a bonsai if you give it years to do so?
 
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Vance Wood

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Then what does it have to do with? Clip and grow, lead weights, let the tree do it's own thing and hope in the end it looks like something. Do you believe in imposing your own will in controlling growth to accomplish some sort of style goal? Maybe you feel with time a tree will turn out looking like a bonsai if you give it years to do so? You wrote: I'm happy with my own personal definition which I won't go into again - to avoid more futile arguments, This is kind of disingenuous and condescending don't you think? You are after all the one who posted and authored this thread and you should be willing to defend your concept. I have never dodged a question or left a criticism unresponded to even if I have touched on it here a thousand times.
 

MichaelS

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I don't know if it's a lack of comprehension or whether you are fishing for something or what @ Vance Wood.

Your question was this......''When is a tree a bonsai and when is it simply a tree in a pot? What differentiates the two?''

What the hell is disegenuos about my reply? I said I have my own definition which I'm comfortable with and MY definition of the difference has nothing to do with wire.
What the fuck!?

The ''avoid futile arguments'' comment was not directed towards you. It was a general comment based on past experience on this forum.

But in the interests of clarity, here is the definition which I like to go by. The interpretation is up to the individual.

''It entirely expresses the beauty and volume of a tree growing in a natural environment''. - Nippon Bonsai Association 1967

As I've said before, anything else is TO ME self indulgent or a failure. This of course includes many of my own trees.
 

Vance Wood

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I don't know if it's a lack of comprehension or whether you are fishing for something or what @ Vance Wood.

Your question was this......''When is a tree a bonsai and when is it simply a tree in a pot? What differentiates the two?''

What the hell is disegenuos about my reply? I said I have my own definition which I'm comfortable with and MY definition of the difference has nothing to do with wire.
What the fuck!?

The ''avoid futile arguments'' comment was not directed towards you. It was a general comment based on past experience on this forum.

But in the interests of clarity, here is the definition which I like to go by. The interpretation is up to the individual.

''It entirely expresses the beauty and volume of a tree growing in a natural environment''. - Nippon Bonsai Association 1967

As I've said before, anything else is TO ME self indulgent or a failure. This of course includes many of my own trees.
Thank you, then the problem lies totally within the Nippon Bonsai Association of 1967's vague, obscure, and esoteric pronouncement that the interpretation of bonsai is up to the individual. If this is true then all of the shows, and kukufooies are a lie, or this pronouncement is a lie. So much of what we have been hearing and fed lately has the smell of bull manure about it. High sounding rhetoric, and simple sounding techniques that lead no where. The truth is you cannot find a direction when the rules and methods are constantly changing in directions contrary to previous methods and the results seem less not better. So in a quest to make better bonsai we are taking quantum steps backwards.
 

MichaelS

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Thank you, then the problem lies totally within the Nippon Bonsai Association of 1967's vague, obscure, and esoteric pronouncement that the interpretation of bonsai is up to the individual. If this is true then all of the shows, and kukufooies are a lie, or this pronouncement is a lie. So much of what we have been hearing and fed lately has the smell of bull manure about it. High sounding rhetoric, and simple sounding techniques that lead no where. The truth is you cannot find a direction when the rules and methods are constantly changing in directions contrary to previous methods and the results seem less not better. So in a quest to make better bonsai we are taking quantum steps backwards.
Missing the mark again. I said the interpretation of the whether the work is successful according to the definition is up to the individual not the interpretation of bonsai. In other words, do you interpret a work in front of you as entirely expressing the beauty and volume of a tree growing in a natural environment or not. (If you do, then it is a bonsai in your eyes). Not - do you interpret this thing in front of you as a bonsai. What's the difference? Well if the interpretation of bonsai was up to the individual the term bonsai would cease to have a meaning. There must a reference point. Otherwise a ball on a stick could be interpreted as a bonsai. After all, it is a tree in a pot. There must be a reference point and there must be a point beyond which the work ceases to be a bonsai and becomes something else. Hence my narrow definition. Where does that leave most of the plastic looking kokufu junipers etc. Well to me they are misguided attempts at true bonsai which do not meet the definition above and so they are failed attempts in my mind. It's that simple. Obviously convention dictates that I call them bonsai and I will continue to do that, but what I think is different. Also it goes without saying that there are various degrees of failure. Perhaps you suggest we should keep our opinions to ourselves? I say bullshit to that. If someone asks then I will tell them what I believe. Actually even if they don't ask I will tell them if the right opportunity comes along...:p
It's perfectly fine if you disagree and reject that definition. Most would. But now I ask you what is your preferred definition and where does it start and end? If it has no end, I have some pictures to get your opinion on........
And BTW, the NBA's definition is hardly vague! It's about as clear as you can get. Later I will give you their new updated modern interpretation to better cater for a Western mind.
 

Vance Wood

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Missing the mark again. I said the interpretation of the whether the work is successful according to the definition is up to the individual not the interpretation of bonsai. In other words, do you interpret a work in front of you as entirely expressing the beauty and volume of a tree growing in a natural environment or not. (If you do, then it is a bonsai in your eyes). Not - do you interpret this thing in front of you as a bonsai. What's the difference? Well if the interpretation of bonsai was up to the individual the term bonsai would cease to have a meaning. There must a reference point. Otherwise a ball on a stick could be interpreted as a bonsai. After all, it is a tree in a pot. There must be a reference point and there must be a point beyond which the work ceases to be a bonsai and becomes something else. Hence my narrow definition. Where does that leave most of the plastic looking kokufu junipers etc. Well to me they are misguided attempts at true bonsai which do not meet the definition above and so they are failed attempts in my mind. It's that simple. Obviously convention dictates that I call them bonsai and I will continue to do that, but what I think is different. Also it goes without saying that there are various degrees of failure. Perhaps you suggest we should keep our opinions to ourselves? I say bullshit to that. If someone asks then I will tell them what I believe. Actually even if they don't ask I will tell them if the right opportunity comes along...:p
It's perfectly fine if you disagree and reject that definition. Most would. But now I ask you what is your preferred definition and where does it start and end? If it has no end, I have some pictures to get your opinion on........
And BTW, the NBA's definition is hardly vague! It's about as clear as you can get. Later I will give you their new updated modern interpretation to better cater for a Western mind.
I look forward to you presenting that interpretation. My point I guess is trying to determine whether you wire anything; if you do---to what degree and for what purpose? If you don't wire; why not? It really is as simple as that. All of this other stuff, what has been called bullshit, means nothing in the face of this one question.
 

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At some point you have to come to grips with the question: When is a tree a bonsai and when is it simply a tree in a pot? What differentiates the two? I am tempted to leave this with just that question and see what kind of answers arise.
John Naka's famous statement is "Do not try to make your little tree look like a bonsai, try to make your bonsai look like a little tree". I really like Dan Robinson's approach to the bonsai art. Walter Pall said he was a proponent of the naturalistic style. There are too many styles in bonsai to get into the final result: bonsai.
You can read more information of naturalistic bonsai in Bonsai Today # 104 in the article " A Naturalistic Scot's pine written by Walter Pall and Gnarly Branches, Ancient Trees book, Will Hiltz author

I totally agree with Walter Pall about: heavily wire the tree at first to build up the basic form. For all my black pine seedlings, I severely wired them in the first few years in their life, then later on, I have been using cut and grow most of the time and occasionally wiring as needed. I know it takes more time to accomplish the final image, but it gives me a lot of satisfactions and creation.
Thụ Thoại
 

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More info :)
One tree which I constantly had to wire is Tamarix.
Thụ Thoại
 

MichaelS

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I look forward to you presenting that interpretation. My point I guess is trying to determine whether you wire anything; if you do---to what degree and for what purpose? If you don't wire; why not? It really is as simple as that. All of this other stuff, what has been called bullshit, means nothing in the face of this one question.
Yes I wire almost everything. Why? ....to shape the tree. To what degree? Usually the whole tree and often every year. I have some which hardly get touched with wire. Mostly deciduous. The other part of your question is not simple but I can say that as soon as you walk toward a tree with wire you are going to impose more of yourself on it than if you use scissors. That may be good. Usually it is not so good. Usually you end up bringing to the tree your own restrictive, superficial idea of how a branch should look and more than that, you impose the same idea to every tree you wire because your mind has limits. The result is often rows of trees which look the same, tell the same story, and lead to an unsatisfying pastime because you have taken all the mystery out of it, and smothered it with predictability. That's why I want to get away from wiring too much. It gives the tree more of a say in how it develops. Have you ever experienced the following?.... You work on a tree, wire it, look at it again and again and you are pretty pleased with yourself. You put it back on the bench and then sometime later in the future you catch a glimpse of some feature or development in the tree - maybe from the back of it or the side or a different elevation - that the tree itself has done without your assistance or interference and while you weren't looking, and you are pleasantly surprised at the refreshing image which you would never have thought of.
Allowing the tree to grow and selecting what to remove gives a completely different - and I think - more pleasing aspect than the total control that wire allows. Some things can only be done with wire but some things cannot and naturalistic branching is one of them. You can look at it this way. Wire gives the visual effect of wind and gravity (lowering branches and directing their course) to the tree and cutting gives you the effect of branch death and leader renewal - the way branches actually are formed in nature. We put too much emphasis on wiring - direction, and less on pruning - production.
Is doing this easy?. No, it's the most difficult thing to do, not because it's mechanically difficult but because it's so hard to resist to ''smooth over'' something than to just leave it, wait and see what happens.

Oh I forgot the NBA's updated definition

''Made to suggest a larger natural scene or an abstract form of beauty '' 1989 (whatever the hell the second part means!!)
 
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Adair M

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Michael, the purpose of wiring is to set the bones. So that when the new growth comes in, it softens the look and fleshes out the skeleton.

We wire a year before the tree is to be shown. After a year, the new foliage hides the wire on conifers and has the upward growth orientation that looks natural, instead of the “splayed out” look a freshly wired tree might have.
 

MichaelS

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Michael, the purpose of wiring is to set the bones. So that when the new growth comes in, it softens the look and fleshes out the skeleton.

We wire a year before the tree is to be shown. After a year, the new foliage hides the wire on conifers and has the upward growth orientation that looks natural, instead of the “splayed out” look a freshly wired tree might have.
You really don't understand me at all do you Adair?

perhaps if you study these pictures deeply....Free of charge...... this time. :)

alternative9.JPG

alternative8.JPG

B1.JPG

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12.jpg

B14.jpg
 
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Vance Wood

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Yes I wire almost everything. Why? ....to shape the tree. To what degree? Usually the whole tree and often every year. I have some which hardly get touched with wire. Mostly deciduous. The other part of your question is not simple but I can say that as soon as you walk toward a tree with wire you are going to impose more of yourself on it than if you use scissors. That may be good. Usually it is not so good. Usually you end up bringing to the tree your own restrictive, superficial idea of how a branch should look and more than that, you impose the same idea to every tree you wire because your mind has limits. The result is often rows of trees which look the same, tell the same story, and lead to an unsatisfying pastime because you have taken all the mystery out of it, and smothered it with predictability. That's why I want to get away from wiring too much. It gives the tree more of a say in how it develops. Have you ever experienced the following?.... You work on a tree, wire it, look at it again and again and you are pretty pleased with yourself. You put it back on the bench and then sometime later in the future you catch a glimpse of some feature or development in the tree - maybe from the back of it or the side or a different elevation - that the tree itself has done without your assistance or interference and while you weren't looking, and you are pleasantly surprised at the refreshing image which you would never have thought of.
Allowing the tree to grow and selecting what to remove gives a completely different - and I think - more pleasing aspect than the total control that wire allows. Some things can only be done with wire but some things cannot and naturalistic branching is one of them. You can look at it this way. Wire gives the visual effect of wind and gravity (lowering branches and directing their course) to the tree and cutting gives you the effect of branch death and leader renewal - the way branches actually are formed in nature. We put too much emphasis on wiring - direction, and less on pruning - production.
Is doing this easy?. No, it's the most difficult thing to do, not because it's mechanically difficult but because it's so hard to resist to ''smooth over'' something than to just leave it, wait and see what happens.

Oh I forgot the NBA's updated definition

''Made to suggest a larger natural scene or an abstract form of beauty '' 1989 (whatever the hell the second part means!!)
I can buy that explanation, I kind of look at it the same way. Your assessment of the 1989 NBA update shows my point about what we have been getting from Japan recently; esoteric moo moo doo doo.
 

Adair M

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You really don't understand me at all do you Adair?

perhaps if you study these pictures deeply....Free of charge...... this time. :)

View attachment 201267

View attachment 201268

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View attachment 201270

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View attachment 201272

View attachment 201273
What does this have to do with using wire?

The changes in the branch you illustrated happen over decades in a real tree. Centuries, maybe.

Wire is but a tool. A tool we use to simulate and accelerate the effects we see that occur naturally on a magnum scale that we want to have happen to our tree on a micro scale.

The problem is not the tool (wire), it is the artist’s use of it.

Good Wiring involves more than just the application of the wire on the tree. How the wire is used to shape the branches is what determines how the tree will ultimately look. And, for sure, proper pruning is equally as important.

Wiring and pruning are tools. Tools we use to create an image. We are trying to mimic what nature does on a grand scale that takes eons to produce, on a miniature scale in a very short period of time. Without proper application of the tools we have at out disposal, we cannot make it happen.

You may think the tree “does it on its own”. Yes, the tree grows. The tree does not try to attain a particular shape. It just grows. The weather influences the tree. The wind hits some parts more than others. Snow accumulated on some parts, ant not onothers. Some parts get better exposure to the sun. All these things affect the tree. With wire and pruning, we are trying to affect or trees in a similiar manner so that they will grow while on our benches in the same way that they do on the mountain.
 

MichaelS

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I can buy that explanation, I kind of look at it the same way. Your assessment of the 1989 NBA update shows my point about what we have been getting from Japan recently; esoteric moo moo doo doo.
So it looks like we agree! (I think)
Yes you can buy it. How much do you have to spend?
 
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MichaelS

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. With wire and pruning, we are trying to affect or trees in a similiar manner so that they will grow while on our benches in the same way that they do on the mountain.

Well exactly so why are you wiring black pines the way you do? I'll tell you why, you, me and everybody else has learned to wire and shape according to what we see in other bonsai not trees. That is my point. Also, there are things you cannot do with wire. We tend to fall back on wiring because that is all we understand. You see this in most of the bonsai professionals. I have seen most of them at one time or another. This is why most bonsai look the same. Another factor is our greed and desire. The desire to have what others have as soon as possible. Why should I cut that branch to change it's direction when I can wire it and cut the time by 75% and have my tree sooner, even if the end product becomes visually over manipulated?. This is a big part of the problem. Mark my words, sooner or later you will start to hear the same thing said all over the place because it is the only way forward. Bonsai have been ''refined'' as much as they can ever be. Any more and they will be come completely ridiculous. No, I'm afraid the only way forward for bonsai is to go back to the beginning and start again. The beginning being to dispense with the bonsai image from your mind and go to the source.
 

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Adair M

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Well exactly so why are you wiring black pines the way you do? I'll tell you why, you, me and everybody else has learned to wire and shape according to what we see in other bonsai not trees. That is my point. Also, there are things you cannot do with wire. We tend to fall back on wiring because that is all we understand. You see this in most of the bonsai professionals. I have seen most of them at one time or another. This is why most bonsai look the same. Another factor is our greed and desire. The desire to have what others have as soon as possible. Why should I cut that branch to change it's direction when I can wire it and cut the time by 75% and have my tree sooner, even if the end product becomes visually over manipulated?. This is a big part of the problem. Mark my words, sooner or later you will start to hear the same thing said all over the place because it is the only way forward. Bonsai have been ''refined'' as much as they can ever be. Any more and they will be come completely ridiculous. No, I'm afraid the only way forward for bonsai is to go back to the beginning and start again. The beginning being to dispense with the bonsai image from your mind and go to the source.
I submit that trees generally don’t grow like your pictures show. I have circled two areas that won’t happen, unless that branch is at the apex. The areas I circled in red show backward growth, back towards the trunk. Branches higher up on the tree would shade that area out, so the branch would not have lush healthy foliage there. At the apex, sure. There would be no higher branches to provide shade. But not lower or mid tier branches. They would always be reaching out, trying to find sunlight.

757418D6-0D83-4C50-868D-4B73EDC778F0.jpeg
 

Adair M

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But I still say you have not built a case against wire. I am not suggesting no pruning. If you want a sharp change of direction, go ahead! Cut! There are still places where you might want a subtle curve. Between nodes. In those instances, wire is essential.
 

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I submit that trees generally don’t grow like your pictures show. I have circled two areas that won’t happen, unless that branch is at the apex. The areas I circled in red show backward growth, back towards the trunk. Branches higher up on the tree would shade that area out, so the branch would not have lush healthy foliage there. At the apex, sure. There would be no higher branches to provide shade. But not lower or mid tier branches. They would always be reaching out, trying to find sunlight.

View attachment 201372
Oh it absolutely happens. See this is the difference between theory and observation. Where there is light there is potential for growth there. Very old branches stop extending. They become ''fixed in position more or less. If they are out in the light, the subsequent very slow growth from there will go in any direction it can. I'm not saying it is a major feature of every old tree but it's one more element to consider.

A tree down the road from me....

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Adair M

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Oh it absolutely happens. See this is the difference between theory and observation. Where there is light there is potential for growth there. Very old branches stop extending. They become ''fixed in position more or less. If they are out in the light, the subsequent very slow growth from there will go in any direction it can. I'm not saying it is a major feature of every old tree but it's one more element to consider.

A tree down the road from me....

View attachment 201374


View attachment 201375
It’s hard to tell exactly which way they are growing, but even if they are growing the way you say they are, what does this have to do with wire? Which is the point of this thread, I believe.
 
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