No Posts From Japan

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I would have to agree with the age theory as well. My wife is Japanese ( we are in our early 30's) and when I started getting into bonsai, she said that was "shibui."
Funny.
I belong to an association (in France) where I am both the only guy and only non-Japanese participant. When I said that I practice bonsai one of the women told me : "bonsai ? shibui desu ne". She intended to be rather nice with me but she's in her middle forties ;)

Shibui seems to be be rather polysemic with one of the meanings being "sober and refined"
 

Randy

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Perhaps a simple survey of actual forum participants would highlight their similarities as well as shedding some light into the demographics of those who do not participate?
 

bonsai barry

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When I lived in Boston (17 years ago), I worked with several people from Japan. At that time in my life I was just getting interested in bonsai. I asked some of my close partners about bonsai in Japan and they told me that it was mainly an older persons hobby. I'm not trying to sound rude but several of them implied that only old retired folks participated in bonsai - not the younger generation. Some of them even laughed at me and said it was an old persons hobby.

When I visited Japan, I had the same experience. The perception of the people that I was in contact with was that it was mostly older men that were involved in bonsai.The very kind people that I was staying with, worked incredibly hard to find someone that was doing bonsai in their small town. Their efforts did pay off. Finding a friend of a friend, I met a man that had lots of experience in grafting black pine. We spent an enjoyable afternoon looking at bonsai, drinking tea and eating noodles.
 

edprocoat

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It may have a little to do with styles too. In America many of the Bonsai you see vary from the traditional styles you see in Japanese and Chinese Bonsai, even the plants are different. Perhaps they stick to their own areas for advice and materials as that would be much easier and cheaper too.
I have a Barberry as a Bonsai and its a sharp little plant with the reddish to purple leaves, I found out that although they have them in Japan they are not seen in Bonsai over there as the Barberry is considered bad luck over there. Then again maybe they feel that as they are the originators of this practise they do not feel the need to share or engage in communication with others who are not of their country.

ed
 

mizz5540

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They people are great. I love that people. They people has very advanced technologies.
 

Bill S

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"But as said before, younger people with better English skills don't do bonsai generally."

I have found this to be a big part of that, Isao Omachi was in country for our convention, and he and his helper spoke English, but due to proficiencies tended not to speak it, unless you were one on one, it's an uncomfort thing for them. As JKL and a few others said, for the younger Japanese, it's not a big thing for them, as said an older mans thing.
 

kakejiku

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もし、こういう風に書けば、盆栽の興味がある方から良く習うことが出来ます。

If you write like the above then you can learn alot from individuals interested in bonsai....
Even though my Japanese is not good if you make effort to communicate in Japanese then they communicate with you. My Japanese is not great, and if my wife checked it she would be confused at times, but maybe we should be the ones to make an effort to communicate with the Japanese bonsai hobbyists...Smoke had a point when he said how many of us participate in Japanese bonsai forums...and if there are not forums there are blogs with people who will reply to you.

Old man's hobby, primarily......but not necessarily....
 

Attila Soos

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Old man's hobby.

Well, you guys have to be able to read between the lines, when dealing with this "old man" business.

In Japan, being seriously into bonsai means one thing: owning expensive bonsai masterpieces. Bonsai is a status symbol over there. It requires a refined taste, and lots of money. Well, guess who has BOTH at the same time? Older men. In Japan, and in any society for that matter, the money and the power is in the hands of "old men".
Here in the West, wer are content to play around with our little trees that may cost a few hunder dollars at most. And I am sure that a few Japanese youth are having fun doing the same. But the real deal over there is the Kokufu-ten, or Gafu-ten caliber material, and that takes an "old man's money" to own.

Like everything in life, follow the money trail, and you may get to the bottom of things.

P.S.: I intend this post to be a light-hearted Monday-morning musing, so don't take it too seriously. Also, you are welcome to disagree. But seriously, who can afford those fabulous trees in Japan, other then the "old men" we are talking about? It has little to do with age, and more to do with the power of one's pocket.
 
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I don't know a lot of bonsai amateurs in Japan so my account can't be taken as a statistically founded one, but I know or have met a few people doing bonsai.
They had/have very common trees, the type you can easily buy in the west without being unreasonable for an average income. They just cost less in Japan !
When I was living in Kyoto, I was living in a very poor area mixed with or close to a burakumin ghetto. Nonetheless, one neighbor had a really nice collection...on the roof of is house.
so money doesn't appear to me as a really important factor for doing bonsai like most westerners do.
I think that living conditions (big cities, no garden, long working hours...) are more important, with general lack of interest of the young of course!
 
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Attila Soos

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When I was living in Kyoto, I was living in a very poor area mixed with or close to a burakumin ghetto. Nonetheless, one neighbor had a really nice collection...

The fact that the area was a poor one, might explain why the collection of this person was in the low price range. On the other hand, I suspect that if you looked at a nice bonsai collection in a more wealthy area, or an affluent area, you would see much more exquisite trees....or no trees at all, because the wealthy would keep their trees at a professional bonsai nursery. As it was said before in this thread, expensive bonsai are often in the custody of professionals, because it is too much money invested in them, to take a chance and possibly kill it.
 
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No, this man had a nice collection, far better than the others amateurs I spoke with (during other stays in Japan than my mean 2 year long stay).
I passed at least twice a day in front of his house during 2 years, was already interested in bonsai and never tried to talk with him. What a fool I was !
 

edprocoat

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The fact that the area was a poor one, might explain why the collection of this person was in the low price range. On the other hand, I suspect that if you looked at a nice bonsai collection in a more wealthy area, or an affluent area, you would see much more exquisite trees....or no trees at all, because the wealthy would keep their trees at a professional bonsai nursery. As it was said before in this thread, expensive bonsai are often in the custody of professionals, because it is too much money invested in them, to take a chance and possibly kill it.

That would have to be another cultural diference. I doubt many, if any, professional bonsai nurseries/bonsai babysitters exist in America. Americans tend to be hands on type of people, personally if I had spent $10,000 dollars on a specimen I would want to tend to it myself and watch it each day. Not that I have that kind of money but for me its the getting my hands dirty and watching what I can accomplish that interests me. I would lose interest in a tree that was housed and cared for me by a third person, I guess one could go visit it or at times take it home for the weekend, kind of like a parent sharing custody of a child, just does not seem appealing to me at all.

ed
 

Vance Wood

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A question posted on the IBC asked why there are no posts from Japanese bonsai artists on Western bonsai web forums. Two responses so far focused on the issues of respect and politeness or lack thereof on Western forums as an important reason,

Do any of you have thoughts or insight on this?

I don't necessarily mean this as a condemnation of the Japanese but the Japanese are still a pretty closed society steeped in the concept of Japanese superiority in both race and activities. It is part of their way of thinking that us Westerners are unable to make decent bonsai so why should they post on a predominantly Western Bonsai site?
 

Attila Soos

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That would have to be another cultural diference. I doubt many, if any, professional bonsai nurseries/bonsai babysitters exist in America. Americans tend to be hands on type of people, personally if I had spent $10,000 dollars on a specimen I would want to tend to it myself and watch it each day. Not that I have that kind of money but for me its the getting my hands dirty and watching what I can accomplish that interests me. I would lose interest in a tree that was housed and cared for me by a third person, I guess one could go visit it or at times take it home for the weekend, kind of like a parent sharing custody of a child, just does not seem appealing to me at all.
ed

Yeah, the same with me, I would lose interest if I had to make time to visit my bonsai.
But this is why I believe that bonsai can be a status symbol in Japan. A wealthy person may rarely, if at all, see his prized bonsai, but just having himself listed as the owner of a famous tree, conveys a certain fame and recognition. That would never happen in the West, since nobody would give a hoot about what kind of tree I own.
 

Chri77pher88

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When I lived in Boston (17 years ago), I worked with several people from Japan. At that time in my life I was just getting interested in bonsai. I asked some of my close partners about bonsai in Japan and they told me that it was mainly an older persons hobby. I'm not trying to sound rude but several of them implied that only old retired folks participated in bonsai - not the younger generation. Some of them even laughed at me and said it was an old persons hobby.
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Vance Wood

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When I lived in Boston (17 years ago), I worked with several people from Japan. At that time in my life I was just getting interested in bonsai. I asked some of my close partners about bonsai in Japan and they told me that it was mainly an older persons hobby. I'm not trying to sound rude but several of them implied that only old retired folks participated in bonsai - not the younger generation. Some of them even laughed at me and said it was an old persons hobby.
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It really is sad to hear this point of view though it is not the first time; I have heard this for years. It is unfortunate that Japan is starting to lose some of the unique things that made them special. It is a fact that many of the crafts are dying out with the last generation because the younger generation does not want to continue in them. One thing can be said about the Japanese; they are probably the world's most meticulous craftspeople. There is not half-ass approach to anything they do.

Sadly we have taught them the value of bull-shit.
 

John Ruger

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It really is sad to hear this point of view though it is not the first time; I have heard this for years. It is unfortunate that Japan is starting to lose some of the unique things that made them special. It is a fact that many of the crafts are dying out with the last generation because the younger generation does not want to continue in them. One thing can be said about the Japanese; they are probably the world's most meticulous craftspeople. There is not half-ass approach to anything they do.

Sadly we have taught them the value of bull-shit.

Do the top bonsai masters in Japan still command much respect outside the bonsai community? What about bonsai apprentices, are more of them from overseas now as opposed to the younger Japanese?
 

Bonsai Nut

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I think, like any culture, though you can find general trends it is important not to stereotype. One of my business friends is a lower executive at a Japanese computer game company that is every bit as young, cool and trendy as anything in Japan. After we had been doing business together for a while I accidently sent him an email from a bonsainut email address instead of my professional email. He was amazed and asked me all kinds of questions about why I used that address. Next time we got together all he wanted to do is talk about white pines :) To this day whenever we exchange emails he always asks about my trees :)
 
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