Nursery deciduous- air layer or trunk chop?

[Agriff]

When you all are looking for your next deciduous tree at a nursery, do you go for species that respond well to trunk chops, or do you look for features that would work well with an air layer?

I know this is completely subjective but I'm interested in hearing opinions. No matter what, it seems like there's no way around waiting a few years for something that could even be considered pre-bonsai. I've been considering all deciduous trunk-choppable trees to be more or less the same as far as nursery purposes go: pay $150 for a decent trunk with movement and chop away, forget about the foliage. But lately I've been wondering if that's less than ideal, and if I want to be more patient by growing out an air layer in order to avoid the nasty scars that come with the big chop.

I've never purchased a nursery tree before and I can see why people go for conifers...much easier to get your hands dirty with styling right off the bat.

 

[BobbyLane]

over the years ive always went for decent trunks and cut them down. only in my last 3 beech purchases ive decided to try layering.
a lot will come down to what you can get your hands on. airlayering is longer term and a bit of a gamble imo.

 

[Agriff]

over the years ive always went for decent trunks and cut them down. only in my last 3 beech purchases ive decided to try layering.
a lot will come down to what you can get your hands on. airlayering is longer term and a bit of a gamble imo.

Interesting- how do you figure it's more of a gamble? To me it seems like more of a sure thing. You're trading the time it takes to fatten the trunk for the knowledge of knowing what one or two of your primary branches look like. Or do I have that wrong?

 

[Paradox]

Interesting- how do you figure it's more of a gamble? To me it seems like more of a sure thing. You're trading the time it takes to fatten the trunk for the knowledge of knowing what one or two of your primary branches look like. Or do I have that wrong?

Air layering is not a guaranteed success. They can fail which is the gamble.

 

[BobbyLane]

yup they can fail, which then means you have to start again or wait another season. in that time you could of had a decent trunk and been focusing on branch structure/taper etc
even if a layer is a success, you still might only get roots on one side which is a pain, then you may have to spend further time grafting on new roots.

you say it seems like more of a sure thing. do you have results to share?

funnily enough i just posted a video of Chan air layering hornbeams, he claims theyre usually a success every time, but only when he puts the broken off layer into a pot of sphagnum moss. he is backing up his claims with proof. i like that.

 

[BobbyLane]

not saying thats what you should do, but its something i may experiment with myself in the future.
I remember Mach saying he lost his beech or part of it after separation. might it have survived if it was kept in full sphagnum moss, who knows.

To sum up, in answer to the op, 'it depends' on the material, some trees arent worth layering while others are.
maybe if you could post some pics we can tell you whats worth doing.

 

[Agriff]

you say it seems like more of a sure thing. do you have results to share?

Zero results, as I've never attempted an air layer before. I just got into bonsai about a month ago. I just know that people like Ryan Neil talk about it as if it's a pretty routine thing. I guess by "sure thing" I meant that with an air layer, you can be 100% sure of what a good amount of your primary branch placement and movement will look like, whereas with chops it's rolling the dice on the back buds.

I started this thread out of a curiousity around how people like to go hunting for deciduous nursery matierial. Is it more of an exercise of studying trunk lines and looking for chop potential, or do you look at canopies to see where a pre-bonsai could be plucked from the top of the trunk with an air layer? Or a combo of both.

'it depends' on the material, some trees arent worth layering while others are.

That makes sense to me.

I'm about to start a few air layers on maples, buckthorn, and oaks in my backyard, but that's because they've grown into my chain link fence and I can't collect them without either an air layer or ripping apart the fence. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[BobbyLane]

this is nursery material

this too


i knew what i was getting when i chopped them down from larger trees to develop the branch stubs that were there.
i look for good trunks, low branches, nebari, can i cut back to a branch to taper the trunk off. or will it be a stump as in first image.

in part 1 and 2 Ryan goes over what he looks for in nursery material. and why he layers a juniper.

 

[Paradox]

I started this thread out of a curiousity around how people like to go hunting for deciduous nursery matierial. Is it more of an exercise of studying trunk lines and looking for chop potential, or do you look at canopies to see where a pre-bonsai could be plucked from the top of the trunk with an air layer? Or a combo of both.

Look for a trunk first. That is the thing that takes the longest to develop, followed by good nebari. Branches can be grown

 

[Cadillactaste]

Look for a trunk first. That is the thing that takes the longest to develop, followed by good nebari. Branches can be grown

What she says...Good bones. Having good bones, for me makes the journey all that more rewarding. Still intrigues guests...when they look at raw material...that they still see something. Even with an eye not Intune with bonsai.