Nursery JWP branch/shoot reduction

[goosewing]

Hello BonsaiNut!

Last month I picked up a nursery Japanese White Pine 'Kinpo' grown from Iseli. Just a beautiful tree. I am new to bonsai and wanted to branch out beyond junipers, decided to go for a pine, and would up with this one. Little did I know how challenging Japanese White Pines are. Anyway, over the past month, I have poured over the internet, this site/these forums, and a couple of books looking for advice on what to do to get this tree trimmed down/reduced properly so that it doesn't outgrow itself in the coming years, as I understand JWP have a tendency to do with their rare backbudding. The tree is currently too dense and I want to reduce its foliage and optimize its branching structure for bonsai.

Included are 5 images:
1. Tree after first of a series of minor trims. You can faintly see the graft union. As far as I can tell comparing to other posts on this forum, the graft is decent. I am not sure onto what rootstock Iseli grafts their JWP (e.g., JBP, scots, etc.). But tree is altogether too dense and I hope to fix that.
2. Showing what I believe to be the front where trunk base appears widest.
3. Showing how I plan to wire lowest right branch to expose trunk better. This picture also exposes some of the many branches arising from first whorl. Some are pointing diagonally upward and I do not think I will ever be able to wire them into a correct horizontal/downward position--thinking I must remove them?
4. A ton of tiny shoots/branches emerging below apex of tree. Not sure whether these should be trimmed or whether it would be better to actually chop the trunk that these are emerging from, making these form a new broad apex (collectively their foliage makes a decent dome).
5. Partially wired bottom right branch. This picture displays some of the main questions I have about how best to take care of this tree:

• All over the tree I have branches that fork into 3, rather than the ideal 2. Two of such branches are wired in this picture. If I had caught these branches forming 1-2 years ago (whenever it was), I would have reduced them to 2. But now that they are here, I worry that by removing them all I would be removing "too much." What is the best course of action: leave them as forks of 3, cut the middle strongest branch leaving 2 symmetric thinner branches (best aesthetically), or cut a side thin branch leaving 2 asymmetric thick and thin (perhaps best for pulling sap/energy to this bottom part of tree?).
• As demonstrated on a few of the thicker branches, not only are there tiny shoots/needle tufts at the ends of branches, there are also needle clusters emerging directly from the branch itself. This is not something that I ever see when I look at pictures of JWP and it is not as aesthetically pleasing as the "clean" thin branches with only needles tufts at the end. As a bit of an experiment, I treated one branch by cutting all of the needles just above their bases where they emerge directly from the branch (bottom right of image), and on another branch I left them intact. What are your thoughts on this?

How much pruning/foliage reduction can a JWP handle in a single winter? My inexperienced judgement puts this tree in good health because of how vigorous many of its shoots are/were.

Your insights are greatly appreciated! For reference, I am based in NYC (Zone 7b). Thank you for reading.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Generally, I do ZERO pruning in the beginning and middle of winter. If I do winter pruning, I do it fairly late in winter. If you are wintering this tree on a balcony or other exposed site, you want all the branches and buds intact for maximum hardiness. Leave it alone until you are within 6 to 8 weeks of your average last frost date. Then you can do your late winter pruning, after the worst of your cold weather has passed.

As a general rule, never remove more than 25% of foliage at a time. Never remove more than 25% of the roots at any one time. Never repot or prune the roots the same year you prune the foliage. If you are going to repot, do zero pruning for 6 months prior and 12 months after repotting. This is a conservative guide that will help those without experience with JWP. Once you have enough experience, you will know when you can be more aggressive. But until you have enough experience with JWP to not need to ask questions in a forum, you should be conservative and go slow with JWP.

Pruning off too much during autumn, winter or early spring can kill your tree. I find better success with doing much of my pruning in middle to late summer. Again, I do not remove more than 25% at any one time.

Search threads on JWP started by Adair M, he is the member with quite a few high quality JWP, and he offers very clear advice on how to grow them that is proven, traditional techniques.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

JWP are not like deciduous trees. You can not force back budding simply by pruning. Back budding requires the tree to be in top health conditions first. Good vigorous growth must be happening for a couple years before pruning to "force" back budding. Pruning a weak JWP will simply make it weaker. The best way to get back budding is to get the tree growing vigorously. Much of the back budding with occur during periods of vigorous growth without needing to "force the back budding" by pruning. But once a tree is vigorous, a well timed pruning will indeed force back budding.

 

[goosewing]

Thanks for your replies! I'll leave the tree alone for the rest of the winter and keep it protected. I have probably removed around 25-30% of the foliage at this point--fingers crossed I haven't pushed the tree too far.

To be clear, I was not pruning with the intent of producing backbudding--only to thin out the tree to prevent inner branches from dying off and reducing the number of branches that trifurcate.

 

[goosewing]

Japanese white pine in New Mexico? Let's see how this goes.

Hey everyone, last week I was lurking on the Facebook bonsai classifieds and saw this Fukuzumi JWP that Mark Comstock had for a good price. I've heard many horror stories from older people in my club about JWP dying here in about 4 years average, but I had to try it myself! The tree has a 2.5"...

www.bonsainut.com

For reference, this post by @Adair M is the closest that I have been able to find addressing the main question I have in how best to properly reduce the shoots on this JWP.

 

[Adair M]

It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of JWP, and it’s growth habit. You wiring looks good, too!

Let’s discuss that wired branch...

From what I can see from the picture, the branch comes off the trunk, then splits into two. They are almost equally thick. Then each one has a node with three branches. Two side shoots and a stronger center shoot. If you look, the two forks are growing out about equally, and what is being created is a branch with a circular outline. And no center main branch.

What you WANT is a central main branch with alternating left, right, left, right branching. A branch structure like that creates a triangular outline.

Look at this diagram:



In the top picture, see how the branch is semi-circular? In the bottom picture, it’s been wired to make one central branch the main line?

Here’s a branch by Kimura:



I know it’s deciduous, by the principle is the same. Look at the angle of the main line branch, and the angle the first sub-branch make (the one wired with pink wire). It makes about a 30 degree angle.

Now look at your first fork. The two branches make a 90 degree angle. That very first angle is causing you all the problems! And will only get worse!

Good news is you can fix it! Tighten that angle, pull the two branches tighter together to make an angle of 45 to 30 degrees, and then choose one of them to be the main line, and the other to be the first secondary, I think I’d choose the branch on the right to be the main line. Cut the the center shoot out on the left (now secondary) branch where there are 3.

You pretty much never want a three pointed joint.

(Unless one is a “top branch”. But that a whole ‘nuther subject!)

 

[goosewing]

Wow! That is a big help @Adair M. I really appreciate your input.

What is your take on the proper treatment of needles that emerge directly from the branch? Not quite sure why I am seeing them on some growth and not on others--perhaps just sticking around longer on the strongest branches? Prune by clipping just above needle base or allow to stay until they fall off naturally?

 

[Adair M]

Wow! That is a big help @Adair M. I really appreciate your input.

What is your take on the proper treatment of needles that emerge directly from the branch? Not quite sure why I am seeing them on some growth and not on others--perhaps just sticking around longer on the strongest branches? Prune by clipping just above needle base or allow to stay until they fall off naturally?

Yeah, just cut them off short. JWP can pop new shoots from the base of needles. If you pull the needles, you’ll likely damage the bud, and you’ll never get a shoot there. Regardless, most backbudding occurs at nodes, not from needle buds. But, you never know.

After cutting the old needles off short, they’ll dry up and fall off in a couple of weeks.

 

[goosewing]

Yeah, just cut them off short. JWP can pop new shoots from the base of needles. If you pull the needles, you’ll likely damage the bud, and you’ll never get a shoot there. Regardless, most backbudding occurs at nodes, not from needle buds. But, you never know.

After cutting the old needles off short, they’ll dry up and fall off in a couple of weeks.

Great! I'm looking forward to looking over the tree again with all this new insight. I have come across multiple past posts of yours where you have posted that branch diagram but I didn't catch that critical detail as it applies to my tree. Thanks again.

 

[Adair M]

Great! I'm looking forward to looking over the tree again with all this new insight. I have come across multiple past posts of yours where you have posted that branch diagram but I didn't catch that critical detail as it applies to my tree. Thanks again.

LOL!!! I am constantly learning new stuff.

I took Boon’s Intensive class three times. Always learned new stuff!