Nursery plants to bonsai

gstyle

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I have come across two main schools of thought regarding turning nursery plants into Bonsai.

The first is to prune, wire and shape the nursery material and transplant directly into a bonsai pot.

The second is to prune, wire and shape the nursery material but keep in the nursery pot for a year, or more, then transplanting into a bonsai pot.

Is there a correct method here? Or is it dependent on individual plants, species or personal bonsai philosophy?

And I have similar question for yamadori - straight into a bonsai pot or placed in suitable pot to grow on for a time.
 

Flowerhouse

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It depends......
What are the goals for your material, and just what material are you starting with?
For a lot of nursery material a third school of thought would be: Shape a little maybe, plant it in the ground or grow box, see how it develops.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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The correct method depends on the timing and the goal.

If the tree is bought in a repotting season, it's healthy and it's nearly finished apart for some minor refinement, it can go in a bonsai pot.
If the tree is bought outside of repotting season, or if a tree has a long way to go, or if the tree is in poor health, or if the tree is far from refinement, or if the damage from pruning is great enough, you keep it in the original container.

Yamadori, same. But usually they require some extensive restoration which just works better in a custom made container. Not too big, not too small.

The reason behind this is pretty simple: bonsai pots slow down growth. They're good, but far from perfect for trunk growth, or for recovering plants; they're not super stable environments compared to a larger container.
There are people who keep trees in bonsai pots from the start. I have a couple of those trees, their growth output in 4-5 years is comparable to 1-2 years in a regular container. In 5 years, my JRP in regular containers will be as tall as I am. My bonsai pot JRP will be a couple inches taller than it is now.
 

Japonicus

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The first is to prune, wire and shape the nursery material and transplant directly into a bonsai pot.
Never. This is - Triple threat. Stick with 1 major insult per year and your survival rate will be better.
Of course the conifer side of my brain is working here :)
The second is to prune, wire and shape the nursery material but keep in the nursery pot for a year, or more, then transplanting into a bonsai pot.
I do this often, or...I pot it up into a grow out container 1st, oversized bonsai pot or would try an Anderson flat.
When potting into a grow out container, I'm shooting to replace 60-70% of the root mass with bonsai soil,
depends on what I have to work around once inside the root ball.
No matter what I do, I will not general prune or style prior to potting up, maybe some wire carefully, usually not.
I get the foliage ramped up like a bucking bronco, to speed root recovery and production prior to potting up whatever the pot.
Reducing foliage, reduces energy absorbed from the Sun, reduces health and vigour.
 

Paradox

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If the tree is healthy and it is the correct time time of year to repot, then I will transplant the tree into a large training pot to start getting the roots to grow out laterally.

I NEVER take a tree from a nursery pot and put it right into a bonsai pot because you would have to remove too much root mass to accomplish this and its a very good chance youll kill the tree. Going from a nursery container to a bonsai pot should be done in stages over several years.

I might do some light pruning or remove a branch or two at this time but I wait until the following year to really start styling.
 

Forsoothe!

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I'm with almost all of the above except I have different goals, so what I do is slightly different, but for the same reasons. I'm old, have as many big trees as I want and only buy something that has wood the size I am happy with, or characteristics I want to nurture to show-able. I may in some cases want to grow it on for refinement, and if that's the case I trim & wire the canopy and leave it in the original pot as-is in accordance with the One Insult Per 12 Months rule. When I'm satisfied with the major architecture and size then then tree is ready to go into a bonsai pot, or at least into a smaller vessel. I rarely if ever go straight to a show-able pot. The downsizing is a step-by-step process and the next in line pot is chosen after I reduce the roots a safe amount and then find a pot to accommodate that size, not the other way around where I decide these roots will be reduced to fit into this pot because it's what I want. In twenty years, the number of trees that went from nursery to show pots in under five years can be counted on the fingers of one hand. They are exceptions and are not ascertainable at time of purchase, they are exceptions that have nice tops and concurrently small roots which can not be detected without actually repotting.

Ignoring my attitudes of my first ten years in bonsai, I now do not predict or even care a "when" a new candidate from nursery or whatever stock is going to be "show-able". I buy things because they have characteristics I like and begin the process as described here and above. I do not know when it will complete the final step and go to a show. Most of my trees have never gone to a show, and have never even been photographed until recently when I began using software that allowed me to build individual histories. Before the smartphone, photographing was a big deal and there was nothing to do with a million pictures of trees in-process, so I had none. The world has changed in the past five years, but my goals still don't have a "goal" time. I start from the beginning and when the tree is ready, the process switches to maintenance of same. Whenever I see someone with a "years" goal, I cringe. I think that most people have bonsai because they like to work on them. Some people only have trees that they like and are "mature", design-wise. There is room for everyone, but know who you are.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@gstyle - you asked, or opened up a topic with a huge range of responses. It is not possible to really answer your question completely in less than book format. Everything depends on what your desired finished tree should look like, and what the state of the starting material is. I've attached links below, explore the free Youtube offerings of Bjorn and of Ryan Neil, and in there you will find the answers you seek. And yes, to get that answer, you will have to go through hours of video. Or you can read through BNUT for hours and find a better answer than you have received by combing through various posts.




 

BobbyLane

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This Beech went from a growing field, to a bare root ball, to a bonsai training pot. its possible and it depends what youre starting with. if i go to a nursery and pick up a tree that has loads of workable branches, lots of fibrous roots close to the trunk then sure, it could go in a bonsai pot, because im only going to be building ramification. as this one did, didnt skip a beat either. but you have to know what to look for and know what youre doing. with experience you can make your own rules, but since youre asking you havnt reached that level of experience yet. therefore i would err on the side of caution.
i usually put them in training tubs, but i know when i can put one straight into a bonsai pot if i want to.


here's another example, from nursery pot to bonsai training pot. not a finished pot but a suitable decent looking pot that wont stifle the ramification building process much. im my experience 'it depends'


ive never paid any attention to the 2 or whatever insults per year thing. i think it probably applies more to certain conifers or some collected trees, but it seems to be regurgitated for every living plant going.
 
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BobbyLane

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btw ive also killed beeches that went into bonsai pots too early and ive killed them if they went straight into the ground or into a training tub so go figure!:D
 

sorce

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Is there a correct method here? Or is it dependent on individual plants, species or personal bonsai philosophy?

Yes and Yes.

The important thing to remember is that these 2 schools of thought...

two main schools of thought regarding turning nursery plants into Bonsai.

Are schools of thought that divide materials, not schools of thought that divide practitioners.

....

The only important thing is reading the tree, well, only after a thorough investigation of oneself.

Sorce
 

Japonicus

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Being in the New to Bonsai part of the forum, and yes dependent upon species...
Of course the conifer side of my brain is working here

...but experience level plays heavily into the number of insults/yr one would take away from a living plant.
As long as the tree to be, is a happy vibrant lively plant, then you can take away from it.

If you take away from a plant that is in the minus side of life (not recovered) then it's precarious.
You may not be aware of the amount of vigour you've taken, so waiting till the plant has
put on what it does during the course of a year during its different cycles and exercises gives it a chance
that it otherwise didn't have, gain. Experience level will dictate if the plant is ready for another surgery
but to get that experience level, mistakes and death will occur whether potting up or planting.

I haven't watched the entire video yet, but the one Leo posted looks to have great selection insight.
That is where it all begins, selection.
That video is why I rarely come away from a nursery with a mugo pine. I looked through about 20 on my way home today.
Probably 100 last year, and have bought none for 3 yrs. Then again I need no more, so my eye is more particular.
I could've bought 2 mugos today that would've taken beyond 6 years to be maybe good, not great.
 

BobbyLane

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here's one for the 3 insults guys. Dug from a growing field, still with hessian sack in the root ball, put in a plastic pot for transportation, pruned, fully wired/styled and another drastic root reduction before going into a training box. i counted 3 insults there, from a renowned bonsai expert but then again his motto is if you want to be good at bonsai you cant be afraid to kill bonsai. i imagine this hornbeam will be sold for big bucks in LESS than 3 years. hornbeams are hardy, vigorous trees and this one already has an abundance of branches to build from. to be frank, its not one size fits all.

what you can do to a tree is of course very species dependent.

question to the OP, what species do you plan on working with?
 

Paradox

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what you can do to a tree is of course very species dependent.

question to the OP, what species do you plan on working with?
yes some deciduous are almost bullet proof, but the OP showed and asked about a conifer, which is pretty much one insult per year or you have a high risk of killing the tree.
Personally I try to kill as few as possible because dead trees dont make bonsai and are not much fun when they are dead
 

Paradox

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yes some deciduous are almost bullet proof, but the OP showed and asked about a conifer, which is pretty much one insult per year or you have a high risk of killing the tree.
Personally I try to kill as few as possible because dead trees dont make bonsai and are not much fun when they are dead
Actually thought I was in the "When is it ok to sell thread" where I specifically mentioned 3 insults.
That is the tree I am referring too.

In any case I still strive to not kill a tree because as I said already, dead trees dont make good bonsai
 

Shogun610

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I have come across two main schools of thought regarding turning nursery plants into Bonsai.

The first is to prune, wire and shape the nursery material and transplant directly into a bonsai pot.

The second is to prune, wire and shape the nursery material but keep in the nursery pot for a year, or more, then transplanting into a bonsai pot.

Is there a correct method here? Or is it dependent on individual plants, species or personal bonsai philosophy?

And I have similar question for yamadori - straight into a bonsai pot or placed in suitable pot to grow on for a time.
It’s very complicated, I’ll leave it to the O.G’s to guide you. But deciduous are more forgiving than conifers if early spring in your specific USDA zone. And conifers it’s only one main thing per year unusually.
For deciduous repot the tree normally tells you if they gotta chill for a year after , or if they have a lot of growth, they have enough to survive and then some, which tells you , you can prune, pinch etc. Conifers take longer to recover especially Yamadori, after repot on those you usually don’t touch till following year or 2 years..then styling, pinching or pruning is ok.. , but the tree will tell you bass on growth response. For growing pines , I like to remove some soil and roots in spring and put into a grow box or colander to air prune roots. You also can put interesting bends in with wire .
...You can grow in colanders, ... Grow Bags in ground , , grow beds or Anderson flats.
I recommend reading Bonsai Tonight. Watching on YouTube Bonsai Empire,Mirai,Bjorn ,Mauro, BonsaiNut, Michael Hagedorn. Bonsai Wire and Asymmetry podcasts are great. Some people also say that Canadian Bob Ross dude.
Do not I repeat do not watch Herons Bonsai .. good bonsai , but his technique is terrible.
 
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BobbyLane

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Actually thought I was in the "When is it ok to sell thread" where I specifically mentioned 3 insults.
That is the tree I am referring too.

In any case I still strive to not kill a tree because as I said already, dead trees dont make good bonsai
i think you missed the point, maybe you never saw the mirai clip i was referring to. you learn from mistakes, you dont learn by being afraid to make mistakes. nobody sets out to kill their trees, you learn by not being afraid to try things. if you buy a tree for $50 from a nursery you shouldnt be afraid to work it or try out different methods.
 

Shogun610

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It’s very complicated, I’ll leave it to the O.G’s to guide you. But deciduous are more forgiving than conifers if early spring in your specific USDA zone. And conifers it’s only one main thing per year unusually.
For deciduous repot the tree normally tells you if they gotta chill for a year after , or if they have a lot of growth, they have enough to survive and then some, which tells you , you can prune, pinch etc. Conifers take longer to recover especially Yamadori, after repot on those you usually don’t touch till following year or 2 years..then styling, pinching or pruning is ok.. , but the tree will tell you bass on growth response. For growing pines , I like to remove some soil and roots in spring and put into a grow box or colander to air prune roots. You also can put interesting bends in with wire .
...You can grow in colanders, ... Grow Bags in ground , , grow beds or Anderson flats.
I recommend reading Bonsai Tonight. Watching on YouTube Bonsai Empire,Mirai,Bjorn ,Mauro, BonsaiNut, Michael Hagedorn. Bonsai Wire and Asymmetry podcasts are great. Some people also say that Canadian Bob Ross dude.
Do not I repeat do not watch Herons Bonsai .. good bonsai , but his technique is terrible.
And when I say repot Yamadori I mean putting the soil and roots into a well sensing mixture inside a grow box or training pot, then after 1-2 years in recovery you style ..then a year after that, put into a bonsai container of done right . If a pre bonsai pine or conifer has the structure and just needs development, then you style one year, then repot the next year into a training pot with substrate, then the year after that reduce conifer roots even more till it’s almost ready for a bonsai pot. It take 4-5 years from nursery container to pot in a conifer that already has the trunk size and branching. Conifers are way way more complicated than deciduous.
 
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Paradox

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i think you missed the point, maybe you never saw the mirai clip i was referring to. you learn from mistakes, you dont learn by being afraid to make mistakes. nobody sets out to kill their trees, you learn by not being afraid to try things. if you buy a tree for $50 from a nursery you shouldnt be afraid to work it or try out different methods.

No I dont know what the mirai clip is.
Not being afraid to work on a tree doesnt mean you do all the things at once.
There is a difference between working on a tree and totally obliterating it to the point that it dies.
Pushing a tree over the brink of death because you did too much doesn't really teach you bonsai.
Doing too much at once will only teach you that doing too much at once kills a tree.
Don't we already know this from others experience? Do we really need to repeat that on our own? I say no.
Did you learn exactly what pushed the tree over the edge? Nope, you didnt. So the lesson was pointless.

I submit that doing things one at a time and seeing how the tree responds, lives or dies will teach you a lot more than doing 2, 3, 5 things all at the same time.
Repotting the tree and removing too many roots resulting in its death teaches you that you did too much.
The next time you repot the same species, you remove less roots and it lives so you learn that there is a limit to how many roots you can remove.

Doing one thing at at time isn't being afraid of working on a tree. It is taking an aspect and trying it out and seeing what the results are.
Bonsai is a complex topic and it involves a lot of different aspects from species to species, repotting, pruning, wiring, feeding, watering.

People have been doing bonsai for 1000s of years. I dont see why people cant learn from the lessons and mistakes that others have done in the past.
I dont agree that people have to make those same mistakes and reinvent the wheel over and over to learn.
If that is the case than places like Bonsai nut, and all the bonsai books, online videos, classes, etc are all a big waste of time and money.
There is nothing wrong with taking advice from more experienced people and learning from their mistakes.
Bonsai already has a very long learning curve as it is. There is plenty to make mistakes on along the way.

Someone once jumped off a bridge and got hurt or died.
Do I really need to go jump off said bridge (or any bridge) myself to know that I might get hurt or die?
 
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