Nursery stock Elm, some basic and some styling questions

[dresdraconius]

Hello again everyone,

Zone 8a.

So I bought a elm tree .Think it's a cedar elm but I'm not sure. It was about 14-15 feet tall with intact rootball . Seems like it was never in ground, just in a huge nursery container.
I chopped it at about1.5 -2 feet from where the trunk meets the root.
That was about a month ago and it started growing new shoots as you can see.

Have a few questions but any other advice is welcome as well!

1. Root- Rootball was huge! It supported a 15foot tree. I didn't trim it since I wanted to maximize tree's chances of surviving the chop. I don't want to trim the root but want to eventually (in 3-5 years time) transition the tree to a smaller, wider , bonsai like pot. What is a good way to make this change?

2. Styling- I read @markyscott 's elm chohin thread (broom style elm) and would like to follow the same path. Is this recommended for a tree this size or any other ideas?

3.Soil-I have not gone through the rootball / provided it bonsai grade soil. It is currently in a 28 gallon drum (chopped rain barrel drum), DO you all recommend sifting through the roots and then giving it boon mix(+pine bark nuggets to cut down the costs). This is somewhat laborious but I can do it if that means tree will be happy.
Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[Paulpash]

I'd chop it wayyy lower but it's a bit late in the season now to rechop. It's a bit of a telephone pole at the moment. What's your goal for the tree? Broom? Informal upright? Eventual height? Once you have a vision appropriate advice can be given.

 

[leatherback]

Hi,

Looking at your tree I cannot help but onder.. Should you not better cut lower? Maybe reduce the tree to 1/3 of what you have now?

I think the would make a great broom if I look at the trunk, perfectly straight and equal sized.
Reducing the rootball.. In early spring, as the first buds are opening, just bring the rootball back to the main roots. You can easily reduce to 6 inces tall from the nebari. But make sure you first dig down to locate the top of the main trees.

Only move into substrae once you do the main cutback on the roots. Elm can tak all in one go. I would however give the tree one or more years development, and use the big rootbal for fast development of main branches.

 

[dresdraconius]

I'd chop it wayyy lower but it's a bit late in the season now to rechop. It's a bit of a telephone pole at the moment. What's your goal for the tree? Broom? Informal upright? Eventual height? Once you have a vision appropriate advice can be given.

You got me there. I don't have a rigid goal for this tree. I just want this to resemble an elm in nature as much as possible.
Thanks for the response. In Texas, I have another 2-3 months of good weather with sunshine. Wonder if I should chop it now .

 

[dresdraconius]

Hi,

Looking at your tree I cannot help but onder.. Should you not better cut lower? Maybe reduce the tree to 1/3 of what you have now?

I think the would make a great broom if I look at the trunk, perfectly straight and equal sized.
Reducing the rootball.. In early spring, as the first buds are opening, just bring the rootball back to the main roots. You can easily reduce to 6 inces tall from the nebari. But make sure you first dig down to locate the top of the main trees.

Only move into substrae once you do the main cutback on the roots. Elm can tak all in one go. I would however give the tree one or more years development, and use the big rootbal for fast development of main branches.

Thank you for your response.

I'll wait until spring. Then I'll chop it. I wont touch the roots for another 1-2 years. After that I'll go through the roots and pot it in boon+pinebark mix. Thanks leatherback.

 

[leatherback]

I'll wait until spring. Then I'll chop it.

OK, consider your chop before budbreak. Don't let it grow a little before.

Buuut... Your previous post indicates you are not sure of your design for the future. DO decide on that before chopping. Make a plan first, than take actions.

 

[MrWunderful]

Get the roots sorted first, then chop to about 1/3 of what you have next May. Leave multiple leaders for broom, or 1 leader for inf. Upright.

I know you still have a growing season, but I wouldnt chop again.

 

[leatherback]

I would however give the tree one or more years development, and use the big rootbal for fast development of main branches.

Get the roots sorted first, then chop to about 1/3 of what you have next May.

Well.. And there you have it. Do whatever suits your mood

 

[ConorDash]

I'd take advantage of that straight pole trunk, develop nebari, as it takes time, so start asap. Chop a few times for some movement in the top of the trunk but I'd try to find a pic of a tree in nature with that kind of trunk, or what you are aiming for. I like the straight trunk, maybe look to do formal broom.

 

[dresdraconius]

Thank you everyone for your wisdom. I'll just keep it in some well draining soil for now. Will chop early next year before spring.

As for styling, I am starting to like the broom style so probably will try to imitate that.

Thanks again!

 

[MrWunderful]

Well.. And there you have it. Do whatever suits your mood

Always a fan of roots first!

 

[sorce]

I'd layer it off in successive 5 inch sections.

Raise your hand of you actually think the roots in that pot will be any good.

Raise your hand if you believe the new roots will bark up by the time the tree is "finished".

Mr Long Dres Black Sheep Slam....

Peace.

Sorce

 

[dresdraconius]

I'd layer it off in successive 5 inch sections.

Raise your hand of you actually think the roots in that pot will be any good.

Raise your hand if you believe the new roots will bark up by the time the tree is "finished".

Mr Long Dres Black Sheep Slam....

Peace.

Sorce

Sorce, I admit I have no idea what you said there. Were you joking?

 

[leatherback]

He is suggesting to create multiple short stack trees and doubts whether the roots in the pot are ay good.

Just go, and make trees

 

[Carol 83]

He is suggesting to create multiple short stack trees and doubts whether the roots in the pot are ay good.

Just go, and make trees

Are you the official @sorce translator now? Kind of late to the show.

 

[Zach Smith]

Hello again everyone,

Zone 8a.

So I bought a elm tree .Think it's a cedar elm but I'm not sure. It was about 14-15 feet tall with intact rootball . Seems like it was never in ground, just in a huge nursery container.
I chopped it at about1.5 -2 feet from where the trunk meets the root.
That was about a month ago and it started growing new shoots as you can see.

Have a few questions but any other advice is welcome as well!

1. Root- Rootball was huge! It supported a 15foot tree. I didn't trim it since I wanted to maximize tree's chances of surviving the chop. I don't want to trim the root but want to eventually (in 3-5 years time) transition the tree to a smaller, wider , bonsai like pot. What is a good way to make this change?

2. Styling- I read @markyscott 's elm chohin thread (broom style elm) and would like to follow the same path. Is this recommended for a tree this size or any other ideas?

3.Soil-I have not gone through the rootball / provided it bonsai grade soil. It is currently in a 28 gallon drum (chopped rain barrel drum), DO you all recommend sifting through the roots and then giving it boon mix(+pine bark nuggets to cut down the costs). This is somewhat laborious but I can do it if that means tree will be happy.
Thanks in advance for your replies.

Just curious: when you found this elm at the nursery where you bought it, what struck you about the tree that made you think "bonsai"? Or was it just really cheap? Here are some thoughts, in no particular order: 1) Most nursery trees, especially those grown in massive pots for a long time, have horrible roots; I don't mean bad roots, I mean horrible roots; you will spend years trying to make them look better, so you should plan to layer off the trunk and throw out all that existing root (starting next year); 2) broom style bonsai is best attempted once you've got at least five years of good bonsai-making progress under your belt; it is not a beginner's style (I'm assuming you're a beginner, apologies if not); and 3) if this is a cedar elm, you live in the world's repository of awesome cedar elms (Texas); find some place you can go collecting next winter, you'll come back with material that is far better than this specimen - not trying to discourage you, but starting out with inferior or difficult material makes for a much steeper learning curve than you want when starting out.

 

[leatherback]

Are you the official @sorce translator now? Kind of late to the show.

Sorry, no. I am on trial still. Waiting for the offical scorce-approval

 

[dresdraconius]

@Zach Smith

I paid $100 to a guy on craigslist for this tree. It was a big tree but I felt I could chop it since it had thick trunk and then it would morph itself into a miniature tree (with some degree of help of course)
When you say layer off the trunk, do you mean air layering shoots on to the trunk? Do you recommend I trim the roots early spring, after the buds start?

You are right that I am a noob. I will certainly look into where cedar elms can be collected near DFW here.

Thanks.

 

[Zach Smith]

@Zach Smith

I paid $100 to a guy on craigslist for this tree. It was a big tree but I felt I could chop it since it had thick trunk and then it would morph itself into a miniature tree (with some degree of help of course)
When you say layer off the trunk, do you mean air layering shoots on to the trunk? Do you recommend I trim the roots early spring, after the buds start?

You are right that I am a noob. I will certainly look into where cedar elms can be collected near DFW here.

Thanks.

You do a ground (meaning in-pot) layer right above that knob at the base that many newbies think of as a feature (it's not; it's part of what lies beneath, and there's no way to ever make it look natural). If it were my tree, at the same time I started the ground layer I'd chop the trunk back to about two basal diameters, then start building a trunk from there. Let a single leader run from the chop point (seal it when you chop it), put some wire on it do it doesn't grow arrow-straight, then let it thicken to about two-thirds the thickness of the chop point below. At that time you should be ready to separate the layer and chop your leader back. That kills two birds with one stone. You can continue building from there.

 

[sorce]

The only real criteria that makes new roots (from Airlayers) not as good as what may be in the soil, is that they need to grow and bark up. Both these things can happen on a cedar elm before the tree is finished.

So there no real reason to NOT start trees from layers.

If done half well, the top 2 could get your $100back, which IS a little steep, so we best earn it back!

Then ground layer around that bottom flare in the end for your tree!



You'll get a good flare from the layers and roots too.

You could have done this with the entire 15ft!

Sorce