Nursery Stock Masterpieces

[Vance Wood]

Sorry Chris but it has indeed been said. However I am not about to sift through hundredths of post, and dissect them to come up with a trivial piece of data. I have far better things to do with my time.

Ditto, it has been said many times by assorted person's on this forum and others.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I am sorry that you have yet to see a yamdori that blows your skirt up, that is pretty unfourtunante in my opinion. You really are or have missed out on some really good trees. Maybe it was in some of the smaller shows where the trees are judged in the same room as pickles and flowers that Joe Bob brought his little pine collected on the back 40? I am not sure. Or maybe your standards are just so high that only the smaller needles of mugos get you going? Again, not sure.
I will agree that not all yamadori are created equally. But there are HUGE differneces between yamadori and nursery material.

1)Nursery Material is grown for landscape and not trained for any of the features for bonsai.
2)Nursery material is grown as fast as possible to get it into a 3gallon container to charge more. Very young, immature bark and trunks.
3) Finding nursery material that has the attributes to be a killer bonsai is like finding a needle in a haystack, very rough. I am using a guess here, but lets say out of 100k nursey trees you might find 1000 that could be passed as bonsai, 100 that will be good bonsai and 1 that will be very very good.
4)Nursery Material is great for learning and sometimes keeping when you are lucky enough to find the diamond in the ruff. I have some of those that are keepers....

Yamadori~ This is assuming you know where the good trees are to begin with! Oh, and have an eye for knowing what is good stock and seeing the tree inside the tree 10yrs in the future.

1) Most trees are older than we are and could be 1000+ yrs old. Very good bark and deadwood that the best can't even duplicate.
2) trunk movement and bark thickness never found on nursery material.
3) Powerful naturally dwarfed trees that have been formed by mother natures harsh climates. These climates give the tree all of the most desired attributes for quality bonsai stock.
4) Can collect a tree and have it ready to show in less time.
5) Worth much more and more desirable as bonsai than any other form of aquiring stock.

The down fall to collecting is not everyone has the right conditions for good trees in thier part of the country. Not everyone has the skills or eye to collect and ensure they live. And not everyone is built for collecting. You have to be strong mentally and physically, in the best shape of your life, able to go up to 12 miles with 200+ pounds on your back at up to 10,000ft elevation with little to no food or water for 10+ hours. This is one of the tougher days, but they do happen. Not all of us are collecting within site of the truck.

I have never said that nursery material was completly useless, infact I don't know who did? But I did say that if you want the best possible trees in the US it is NOT through nursery stock. That is a fact that I am sure everyone can agree on.

Jason

I still don't think you get it Jason, I was collecting Yamadori before you were a twinkle in you Father's eye. I was collecting Yamadori when no one knew what that term was or what it meant. I know the value of Yamadori and what I have said previously in this thread is still valid. None of the good stuff has made its way out here to this part of the country. What has is not worth my money to obtain, most of what I have seen I would have left in the ground when it was obviously harvested just because it was old and collected. You should count your blessing that you live in a very special part of the country where collecting first class trees is possible, but you should not hold those of us who do not as accountable and as it sounds from SOME of you guys----second rate bonsaists.

 

[Smoke]

You should count your blessing that you live in a very special part of the country where collecting first class trees is possible, but you should not hold those of us who do not as accountable and as it sounds from SOME of you guys----second rate bonsaists.

Now it has been said. Now it will go away....

 

[rlist]

None of the good stuff has made its way out here to this part of the country.

Mr. Vance - What if I told you that you lived closer (assuming you live in/around Troy, MI) to our collecting grounds than we do? Would that change your thoughts about availability of the trees that we are so lucky to be exposed too (which, yes we are)?

 

[Vance Wood]

Mr. Vance - What if I told you that you lived closer (assuming you live in/around Troy, MI) to our collecting grounds than we do? Would that change your thoughts about availability of the trees that we are so lucky to be exposed too (which, yes we are)?

You want to drop the other shoe?

 

[Vance Wood]

Now it has been said. Now it will go away....

Thank you, I just love a good cryptic insult.

 

[Smoke]

.... but you should not hold those of us who do not as accountable and as it sounds from SOME of you guys----second rate bonsaists.

One good cryptic deserves another....

Come on here. This argument is not about trying to make a masterpiece bonsai from nursery material or that you can. the argument is about if one wishes to own a masterpiece bonsai the quickest and easiest way is to start out with something that carries "all" of the attributes for convincing old bonsai already. I have plenty of bonsai from nursery material and continue to purchase them myself. I also have some bonsai from collected material that are so far ahead in years of where I wish to go that to argue against the yamadori would be ignorant.

As far as the gallery at AoB, with the exception of Walter's Juniper which conveys some age I see no masterpieces there. In fact I can make a gallery of nursery trees from the state of California that would blow most of those away as far as bonsai in a comparison. Most look no better than trees anyone would find in a club exhibit.

The inclusion of Morten Albek's cotoneaster in the gallery makes me feel good though. Makes my group of recently repotted(all nursery stock) shohin look pretty good as far as potential to be masterpieces. (If thats the benchmark)

Cheers, Al

 

[Anonymous User]

.....argue against the yamadori would be ignorant.

Nobody has argued against such, instead they have argued against dismissing nursery stock as worthless.

.....As far as the gallery at AoB, with the exception of Walter's Juniper which conveys some age I see no masterpieces there.

Thank you for your enlightened and vastly educated opinion, we'll certainly take it at its full worth. Since you are teaching us, why don't you explain in detail exactly why you would not call Budi Sulistyo's Neea buxifolia a masterpiece? This should be educational for all.

In fact I can make a gallery of nursery trees from the state of California that would blow most of those away as far as bonsai in a comparison.

Then for the love of Pete, do it, stop pounding your chest and screaming that you can. There are those that pound their chests and there are those who have the courage to actually produce. I made the claim that nursery material should not be dismissed as a source for quality bonsai stock, I did not state that it was superior, only that great bonsai can be made from such. I then, to support my claims, compiled a gallery of bonsai made from nursery stock. There are no doubt thousands of other examples out there, In fact I have two more to add to that gallery already and more will come.

This claim that you can produce better bonsai from nursery stock only serves to better illustrate my point, great bonsai can and have been created from nursery stock. However, claiming that you can produce better is a far cry from actually doing so, this is just Monday morning quarterbacking and about as valuable. In short, would of's, could of's, and should of's are for those who don't.

.....The inclusion of Morten Albek's cotoneaster in the gallery makes me feel good though. Makes my group of recently repotted(all nursery stock) shohin look pretty good as far as potential to be masterpieces. (If thats the benchmark)

If you are talking about the attached picture in your post above, I'm afraid they belong more in a beginning "how-to" book than as a comparison to Morten's piece. Since we are giving opinions, your Shohin are not even in the same league, let alone the same ball bark...the ramification structure on Morten's Shohin alone blows all of those out of the water. May I suggest reading this excellent article?

Instead of complaining and knocking what others are doing, why don't you actually try and add to the community for a change? What can it hurt?



"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain -- and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie


Will

 

[grog]

For the love of chocolate chip cookie dough can we please not be so incendiary? No one is proving anything other than how far they will go to try and shove their opinion down others' throats.

As to "masterpieces" why don't we leave the decision on what to grow them from to the people who actually create them.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't think there is anyone who does not realize that it is possible to make a masterpiece bonsai out of a Yamadori tree, really, that's a no-brainer. However if one considers this previous statement to be true and more or less universally accepted what do you Yamadoriphiles get so upset and defensive when the subject of nursery material as credible bonsai comes up? Many of you claim to claim (for now) that there is nothing wrong with nursery trees, and then proceeded to explain what's wrong with nursery trees almost in the same sentence. I then look at this as being first, double minded, not knowing what you think, and second, being condescending finally realizing that good bonsai can indeed be made from nursery stock and not wishing to appear foolish.

The only objection to Yamadori I have is that of quality and price where by many novices obtain very expensive, albeit second rate trees, thinking because they are Yamadore they will automatically make world class bonsai. For those of you who are into the Yamadori culture I have seldom, if ever, heard any one of you describe how to harvest one of these trees, or describe the difficulties in collecting one of them outside the permission problem. No one has ever revealed what to look for, how to chase roots, what species to select, when to dig, what is necessary for a dig, and what to do with the thing to first get it home alive and second how to keep it alive----and for how long before work can commence.

So my question remains a challenge, why do you find it necessary to find such fault with nursery trees and feel compelled to champion the reasons why Yamadori are better? The short if not curt answer is---"So What?" At least one of you has compared the gallery Will H. has put together as, to paraphrase, a beginners gallery with a couple of exceptions.

 

[Rick Moquin]

As far as the gallery at AoB, with the exception of Walter's Juniper which conveys some age I see no masterpieces there. In fact I can make a gallery of nursery trees from the state of California that would blow most of those away as far as bonsai in a comparison. Most look no better than trees anyone would find in a club exhibit.

... now that is an extremely arrogant and conceited attitude my West Coast friend. I thought I was being insulting when I chose to describe the gallery is great trees vice Masterpiece, but you, well you win a blue ribbon for that one.

Does anyone know which state The Humility College is located...

 

[JasonG]

I have not read where anyone said that nursery material is totally useless....

The point that I have been trying to make is this.

The best trees in Japan (and Japanese shows) are not nursery material..... (Very old collcted shimpaku, pines, maples, etc).
Or are these from a nursery?

The best trees in Europe (and European shows) are all collected. (Scots, Mugo, Olives, European hornbeams, beech, maples, etc..)
Or are these from a nursery?

The best trees in America.......will be mostly collected.

Kinda funny that one of the best collections of American bonsai in America is owned by a European and is made up of 100% collected material. Kinda funny that probably the most decorated tree in Europe was collected in America.....
Kinda funny that so many people are blind to the above facts.

For those that swear by nursery material, that is fine~ good bonsai can and will come from that source of material. (Nobody has denied this fact. We denied that "Masterpiece" can come from nursery material as the topic was presented to us.)

But if you want the absolute best then you must step up to collected material at some point or you will just be playing with 2nd rate material. That is not saying you are a second rate artist just that the material is 2nd rate.

So the question remains, the best trees in the world come from what source????

 

[Ross]

So the question remains, the best trees in the world come from what source????

The best artists.

 

[No it's not...]

So the question remains, the best trees in the world come from what source????

The garden of their owners?

 

[Rick Moquin]

I have not read where anyone said that nursery material is totally useless....

The point that I have been trying to make is this.

The best trees in Japan (and Japanese shows) are not nursery material..... (Very old collcted shimpaku, pines, maples, etc).
Or are these from a nursery?

The best trees in Europe (and European shows) are all collected. (Scots, Mugo, Olives, European hornbeams, beech, maples, etc..)
Or are these from a nursery?

The best trees in America.......will be mostly collected.

Kinda funny that one of the best collections of American bonsai in America is owned by a European and is made up of 100% collected material. Kinda funny that probably the most decorated tree in Europe was collected in America.....
Kinda funny that so many people are blind to the above facts.

For those that swear by nursery material, that is fine~ good bonsai can and will come from that source of material. (Nobody has denied this fact. We denied that "Masterpiece" can come from nursery material as the topic was presented to us.)

But if you want the absolute best then you must step up to collected material at some point or you will just be playing with 2nd rate material. That is not saying you are a second rate artist just that the material is 2nd rate.

So the question remains, the best trees in the world come from what source????

jason,

You are starting to sound like a freaking broken record...

 

[Anonymous User]

Kinda funny that one of the best collections of American bonsai in America is owned by a European and is made up of 100% collected material. Kinda funny that probably the most decorated tree in Europe was collected in America.....
Kinda funny that so many people are blind to the above facts.

Kinda funny that someone who sells collected material is defending it so blatantly.


Again, no one is attacking collected material, no one is saying any material is better than other material, what I have said is that good stock comes from where you find it, collected, pre-bonsai, nursery...all that matters is the quality, not where it came from.

There is as much collected crap out there as there is crap from any other source. Not every collected tree is worth the effort it took to dig it up, this is just the plain simple truth. Crap has no preference as to where it came from.

So the question remains, the best trees in the world come from what source????

From the source in which they were found.

Great bonsai are out there grown from seeds, cuttings, layers, from collected stock, from pre-bonsai stock, from traditional nursery stock. To think otherwise is narrow minded. By your logic, no one should purchase stock from Brent or any grower, from any nurseries, because none of them are capable of being great bonsai.

In short, what you are saying is that we should all send you a check today, because collected stock, like what you sell, is the only way to create great bonsai.

I'm I correct in summing up your argument?

Will

 

[JasonG]

In short, what you are saying is that we should all send you a check today, because collected stock, like what you sell, is the only way to create great bonsai.

I'm I correct in summing up your argument?

Will

No, that is not what I was saying. Reread, I said you can create great bonsai from nursery material. But I said the best come from collected material. Only a blind man can argue that or one that knows nothing about bonsai.

This is a lose lose for everyone involved.....

Nuff said from me. Over and out on this subject.

Carry on!

Jason

 

[Anonymous User]

On a friendlier note, we have just added a couple more nursery stock bonsai to the gallery.


Will

 

[agraham]

No, that is not what I was saying. Reread, I said you can create great bonsai from nursery material. But I said the best come from collected material. Only a blind man can argue that or one that knows nothing about bonsai.

Jason

As a point of grammar...you are the one arguing that "the best come from collected material"...the rest of your statement would imply that you are either blind or know nothing about bonsai.I don't personally believe that you suffer from either of these maladies.But.......

As a point of opinion(and assuming that you meant the opposite)....I disagree with you.And,I,like you, suffer neither of these particularly unfortunate circumstances.We can speak definitively about the biggest,the tallest,the smallest,the shortest....all measurable and objective descriptions."The best", "the most awe inspiring" or "the prettiest" are all very, very subjective phrases and as such,one's particular choice may not be another's.This indicates that one could disagree with "your" opinion and still be sighted and somewhat knowledgeable.

Name calling directed at those who disagree about a matter of opinion should be reserved for school children and politics .

andy

 

[Anonymous User]

Since it relates somewhat to this discussion...

Vance Wood has recently wrote an interesting article that is worth the read, which can be seen here.



Will