NY - Suggestion for cheap inorganic material?

[Toshi]

Hey everyone,

Looking to get some suggestions for cost effective substrate for growing out. I have a number of trees that I plan to let grow freely for at least another 3 seasons to thicken and am looking for some cheaper material. For growing out I use a mix of 1/2 inorganic (lave, pumice, gravel) and 1/2 potting soil which has worked very well for me the last 2 seasons. As I was about to purchase some more ingredients online it dawned on me that for growing out there's no reason to spend money on premium soil ingredients, or not at this point in development anyway. I've tried perlite in the past which I really didn't like and didn't have great results with.

I'm going to take a trip to home depot and the 1 terrible garden center nearby to see what's on offer but any suggestions would be much appreciated by this amateur.

 

[Cypress187]

I use baked catlitter clay, but I think you guys use NAPA (floordry?). I don't know the exact product.

 

[Kendo]

I use baked catlitter clay, but I think you guys use NAPA (floordry?). I don't know the exact product.

Turface

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Napa part number 8822, it is diatomaceous earth and Napa auto parts store can order it in if they don’t have it in stock

 

[Kendo]

Napa part number 8822, it is diatomaceous earth and Napa auto parts store can order it in if they don’t have it in stock

Dont want the Diatomaceous, using Turface. This is best choice for cost effective solutions.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P1S69U/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_8?smid=A3TX4YUK2VIRSQ&psc=1

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Dont want the Diatomaceous, using Turface. This is best choice for cost effective solutions.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P1S69U/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_8?smid=A3TX4YUK2VIRSQ&psc=1

Turface shmurface. Who needs turface? ?

 

[Toshi]

That certainly is a deal, 40lb bag for $30.

 

[_#1_]

Dont want the Diatomaceous, using Turface. This is best choice for cost effective solutions.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006P1S69U/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_8?smid=A3TX4YUK2VIRSQ&psc=1

If I'm seeing the price correctly, that's 3x overpriced. 8822 should be comparable and cost about 8-9 bucks.

But hey, not my money

edit: I took the exact bag home and particle size are pretty much the same as 8822. I must of got a bad bag cause there was lots of fines after sifting.

 

[Toshi]

If I'm seeing the price correctly, that's 3x overpriced. 8822 should be comparable and cost about 8-9 bucks.

But hey, not my money

Oh well that's an even more dealier deal. Any chances of finding it online or home depot/lowe's?

 

[Toshi]

Napa part number 8822, it is diatomaceous earth and Napa auto parts store can order it in if they don’t have it in stock

Thanks. So there's a shop not too far from me and it's only $9, i'm going to give it a shot. Do you think a 50/50 mix with potting soil would work well? I've never seen it up close so I don't know if it's chalky or dusty or what.

 

[_#1_]

Google map shows plenty of NAPA Auto Parts store in NY. Just call the closest one and ask if they have oil dry part 8822. Some people on here use nothing but 8822 and their trees don't mind one bit. Get a bag and try it out for a season!

On a side note. I buy a bunch of crap on Amazon cause they have very good price on most stuff. But that SafeT Oil Absorbent is a total rip off! Shocking actually.

Do not mix with any potting soil. Not even an ounce. It will cake up and become a brick. If anything, maybe mix with some pine fines and/or smaller particle pumice.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

8822 is super cheap from Napa, even bags of turface if you can get them from a local agway or something (which I have in the past) and not pay shipping is way cheaper than that $30 for 40lbs clay.

Thanks. So there's a shop not too far from me and it's only $9, i'm going to give it a shot. Do you think a 50/50 mix with potting soil would work well? I've never seen it up close so I don't know if it's chalky or dusty or what.

Do not use potting soil whatsoever in a bonsai soil mix. Here is a good article on bonsai soils, you should give it a read. http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Soils.html

NAPA will usually be a bit dusty, but this dust will wash out when you go to water it for the first time, don’t worry about that. Though dust from diatomaceous earth can be harmful to the lungs so wearing a mask is advisable when working with it, or just make sure you work outside with a slight breeze you’ll be fine.

You can successfully use NAPA 8822 by itself as a soil. If you want you can sift it over window screen sized mesh you can remove the smallest particles (fines) and a good amount of dust this way. If you want to amend the soil for more aeration, a fantastic option and substitute for the more expensive pumice is just regular old perlite.

 

[TN_Jim]

8822 is super cheap from Napa, even bags of turface if you can get them from a local agway or something (which I have in the past) and not pay shipping is way cheaper than that $30 for 40lbs clay.


Do not use potting soil whatsoever in a bonsai soil mix. Here is a good article on bonsai soils, you should give it a read. http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Soils.html

NAPA will usually be a bit dusty, but this dust will wash out when you go to water it for the first time, don’t worry about that. Though dust from diatomaceous earth can be harmful to the lungs so wearing a mask is advisable when working with it, or just make sure you work outsides with a slight breeze you’ll be fine.

You can successfully use NAPA 8822 by itself as a soil. If sift it over window screen sized mesh you can remove the smallest particles (fines) and a good amount of dust this way. If you want to amend the soil for more aeration, a fantastic option and substitute for the more expensive pumice is just regular old perlite.

bingo

 

[Toshi]

8822 is super cheap from Napa, even bags of turface if you can get them from a local agway or something (which I have in the past) and not pay shipping is way cheaper than that $30 for 40lbs clay.


Do not use potting soil whatsoever in a bonsai soil mix. Here is a good article on bonsai soils, you should give it a read. http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Soils.html

NAPA will usually be a bit dusty, but this dust will wash out when you go to water it for the first time, don’t worry about that. Though dust from diatomaceous earth can be harmful to the lungs so wearing a mask is advisable when working with it, or just make sure you work outsides with a slight breeze you’ll be fine.

You can successfully use NAPA 8822 by itself as a soil. If sift it over window screen sized mesh you can remove the smallest particles (fines) and a good amount of dust this way. If you want to amend the soil for more aeration, a fantastic option and substitute for the more expensive pumice is just regular old perlite.

Thanks for the link, I have 2 of his books and all my inspiration comes from HH I think he's an absolute master of his craft. I know how blasphemous and controversial using potting soil is and for my 2 trees in refinement I don't use it. My "bonsai" mix is lava/pumice/turface/akadama with a little pine bark fines.

For growing out in training pots however, I like to use 50/50 mix with potting soil because it doesn't dry out easily and fertilizer doesn't wash out as quickly. Once the trunks reach the desired girth, then I transtion into a traditional "bonsai mix". My balcony is on a SW facing top floor and gets brutal winds and direct sun for a good 7-8hrs so for me using a largely inorganic based mix just isn't an option, I killed many too many trees when I tried that.

You did point out that the NAPA can be used on its own so I'll try that. The local nursery has some hawaian umbrella trees for cheap so I can pick up a few and experiment with them.

 

[TN_Jim]

Thanks for the link, I have 2 of his books and all my inspiration comes from HH I think he's an absolute master of his craft. I know how blasphemous and controversial using potting soil is and for my 2 trees in refinement I don't use it. My "bonsai" mix is lava/pumice/turface/akadama with a little pine bark fines.

For growing out in training pots however, I like to use 50/50 mix with potting soil because it doesn't dry out easily and fertilizer doesn't wash out as quickly. Once the trunks reach the desired girth, then I transtion into a traditional "bonsai mix". My balcony is on a SW facing top floor and gets brutal winds and direct sun for a good 7-8hrs so for me using a largely inorganic based mix just isn't an option, I killed many too many trees when I tried that.

You did point out that the NAPA can be used on its own so I'll try that. The local nursery has some hawaian umbrella trees for cheap so I can pick up a few and experiment with them.

8822 literally holds its weight in water (and retains it), and has a higher CEC than akadama...and it doesn’t break down...

most of my trees are in 100% 8822..and I never water more than once a day (if that..and it’s hot af)....only problem with 8822 for me is a few of my trees actually like to be drier

 

[Toshi]

8822 literally holds its weight in water (and retains it), and has a higher CEC than akadama...and it doesn’t break down...

most of my trees are in 100% 8822..and I never water more than once a day (if that..and it’s hot af)....only problem with 8822 for me is a few of my trees actually like to be drier

That's really interesting thanks. I think that'll work very well for me as I have a tendency to let my plants dry out, looking forward to trying this.

 

[Kendo]

Only showing product on Amazon. Local store is price better.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

That's really interesting thanks. I think that'll work very well for me as I have a tendency to let my plants dry out, looking forward to trying this.

Yea give 100% NAPA 8822 a try, and if you don’t sift the fines it will hold even more water. It’s kind of mind blowing how much water DE holds. Adding a top dressing of sphagnum moss (not peat) will really slow down evaporation of water at your soil surface too, so give that a try too if you haven’t yet.

 

[M. Frary]

I have used the Napa product for years now.
One thing I suggest when using it is th muc ju with another inorganic component like lava or pumice.
I use lava and my trees are in better health than when in pure D.E.