Oak ID help

[Hartinez]

Yo. So I planted this Oak in my front yard about 5 years ago. It was a clearance rack purchase from Lowe’s. $10 or so. Loved the small leaves but the tiny trunk (at the time) didn’t seem Bonsai worthy. Well 5 years later and I was planning a move and investigated all of my yard plants that I wanted to remove or considered removing. To my surprise (though I should t have been) this tree more than doubled in thickness. So I dug it in March of this year. It started slow as winter seemed to not want to leave but has really put on growth lately and has pushed that growth in adventitious locations. I’m excited for the future of this tree.

here’s my dilemma, I don’t remember what the oak variety was. I believe it was labeled generically like “California oak” or something like that. But can’t remember for sure. Any ID help would be wonderful. @0soyoung @Leo in N E Illinois any thoughts??

These were the leaves when it was in the ground. Some are a bit large but the tree was mostly small leaved.


here it is at collection


and now

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

Could be a Quercus lobata. They are often sold as California white oaks.

 

[Hartinez]

Could be a Quercus lobata. They are often sold as California white oaks.

Just did a quick google search and I think you nailed it. Thanks @NOZZLE HEAD

 

[Hartinez]

@Bonsai Nut being a Cali guy for so long do you agree with the ID? Quercus Lobata?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Kinda looks like this doesn't it? Though @NOZZLE HEAD beat me to it. Mine is a Quercus lobata. I just got ten in yesterday that are a little light green because they've been in a box for a week. I've got a few larger ones with larger dark green leaves that look identical to yours.



Q. lobata, aka California White Oak or Valley Oak. Tallest oak in North America. Endemic to central California. Grows like a weed and can live to 600+ years. I can defoliate mine twice in one year - which is not generally recommended with oaks. The leaves reduce amazingly. It is deciduous and I had no trouble with it shedding leaves, going dormant, and budding out strongly in the spring - even in SoCal.



Not sure why this species is not more well-known to bonsai. I got my first three trees at a bonsai convention a few years back - and thought they were an "experiment" because they wouldn't do well in SoCal without a cold winter. I am really excited about them (which is why I just bought ten to put into landscape here).

 

[Hartinez]

Kinda looks like this doesn't it? Though @NOZZLE HEAD beat me to it. Mine is a Quercus lobata. I just got ten in yesterday that are a little light green because they've been in a box for a week. I've got a few larger ones with larger dark green leaves that look identical to yours.

View attachment 304769

Q. lobata, aka California White Oak or Valley Oak. Tallest oak in North America. Endemic to central California. Grows like a weed and can live to 600+ years. I can defoliate mine twice in one year - which is not generally recommended with oaks. The leaves reduce amazingly. It is deciduous and I had no trouble with it shedding leaves, going dormant, and budding out strongly in the spring - even in SoCal.

View attachment 304771

Success!! That’s the one the one then! Makes me that much more excited about this tree. The base got so big over the years. 4-5 in across. Thanks Greg.

 

[mrt1]

English.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Kinda looks like this doesn't it? Though @NOZZLE HEAD beat me to it. Mine is a Quercus lobata. I just got ten in yesterday that are a little light green because they've been in a box for a week. I've got a few larger ones with larger dark green leaves that look identical to yours.

View attachment 304769

Q. lobata, aka California White Oak or Valley Oak. Tallest oak in North America. Endemic to central California. Grows like a weed and can live to 600+ years. I can defoliate mine twice in one year - which is not generally recommended with oaks. The leaves reduce amazingly. It is deciduous and I had no trouble with it shedding leaves, going dormant, and budding out strongly in the spring - even in SoCal.

View attachment 304771

Not sure why this species is not more well-known to bonsai. I got my first three trees at a bonsai convention a few years back - and thought they were an "experiment" because they wouldn't do well in SoCal without a cold winter. I am really excited about them (which is why I just bought ten to put into landscape here).

I have a related question which might answer yours: why do you never see a valley oak outside of California? Could be the climate.

 

[John P.]

I’m excited for what mine will become:



Was dormant until 3-4 weeks ago, then started growing like mad.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I’m excited for what mine will become:

Was dormant until 3-4 weeks ago, then started growing like mad.

I'm happy to see Tree of Life got some in! They didn't have any for the last several years.

Supposedly they will grow 40' in 10 years, so make sure to keep yours pruned They put on a surprising amount of trunk girth even in small containers.

 

[EPM]

I’ve got four quercus lobata that I’m growing out. I’m in Ohio and they seem to handle the climate just fine. Lik

I'm happy to see Tree of Life got some in! They didn't have any for the last several years.

Supposedly they will grow 40' in 10 years, so make sure to keep yours pruned They put on a surprising amount of trunk girth even in small containers.

I'm trying to grow out 4 of these in Ohio, zone 6A that I got from Brent at Evergreen Gardenworks. I love these oaks. Leaves are naturally smaller than any of the native oaks in Ohio. So far they seem to handle the winters fairly well. I've had some difficulty figuring out fertilizer/soil and pruning. Bonsai Nut, what are your current horticultural practices for your Valley Oaks? How are they doing in North Carolina?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Bonsai Nut, what are your current horticultural practices for your Valley Oaks? How are they doing in North Carolina?

It is too early to tell, really, because they have only been here about six weeks. I moved during an awkward time - they had just budded out in the spring, and I had to bare-root them to move them. They are just now starting to push new growth.

In SoCal the only problem I had with them was some leaf burn during Santa Ana winds. Once I started protecting them from hot wind they did great. I used acid fertilizer on them in SoCal, but it will not be required here because the water is so good. Even in SoCal they would push 2' or more of growth in a season if I let them. I had them planted in 100% pumice.

I have a related question which might answer yours: why do you never see a valley oak outside of California? Could be the climate.

I don't think so. I think you could draw the same conclusion about Giant Sequoia - another California endemic species - which has been proven to thrive in countries all over the world. (Or for that matter, Dawn Redwood, a Chinese endemic, which they are planting here in the Costco parking lot )

I think it is more likely that people just aren't that aware of it. I had an extremely hard time finding a nursery that had them in stock and could ship. I was very skeptical when I bought my first little seedlings from the vendor at the bonsai convention. I was stunned to see a white oak with leaves that were less than 1" long. The vendor assured me that it would grow in SoCal and I can remember thinking "a deciduous white oak that will grow in an arid semi-desert climate?" But she was absolutely correct. I have live oaks and cork oaks as well... but the valley oaks destroy them in terms of strength and rate of growth. You just have to give them water. They won't grow in SoCal (in landscape) unless you irrigate them. I assume if you planted them in SoCal they would eventually grow too big to effectively water, and you would experience die-back if not outright death (which is what happens if you plant coast redwood in landscape down there). But here in NoCar I am assuming they will thrive. They grow in foothill areas in north-central California that has a very similar climate; frequent light rain and mild winters.

 

[Hartinez]

Valley Oak, Q. Lobata from acorns

I think I promised some time ago to post a few photos of valley oaks that I've been growing for the past 7 years. I collected the acorns in the fall of 2004 and planted them on the occasion of my son's birth, in March 2005. I can't say that the results so far really impress me. I grew...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Hartinez]

@Bonsai Nut id imagine not, but do these seem to heal over chops well? At some point I’m going to have to chop to the closest bud on mine, but my other thought would be to leave a bit and carve out some deadwood.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

@Bonsai Nut id imagine not, but do these seem to heal over chops well? At some point I’m going to have to chop to the closest bud on mine, but my other thought would be to leave a bit and carve out some deadwood.

Mine heal small scars very quickly, however they are also putting on a lot of girth at this stage of their lives. I have numerous pruning scars that are all almost all healed.

 

[EPM]

It is too early to tell, really, because they have only been here about six weeks. I moved during an awkward time - they had just budded out in the spring, and I had to bare-root them to move them. They are just now starting to push new growth.

In SoCal the only problem I had with them was some leaf burn during Santa Ana winds. Once I started protecting them from hot wind they did great. I used acid fertilizer on them in SoCal, but it will not be required here because the water is so good. Even in SoCal they would push 2' or more of growth in a season if I let them. I had them planted in 100% pumice.



I don't think so. I think you could draw the same conclusion about Giant Sequoia - another California endemic species - which has been proven to thrive in countries all over the world. (Or for that matter, Dawn Redwood, a Chinese endemic, which they are planting here in the Costco parking lot )

I think it is more likely that people just aren't that aware of it. I had an extremely hard time finding a nursery that had them in stock and could ship. I was very skeptical when I bought my first little seedlings from the vendor at the bonsai convention. I was stunned to see a white oak with leaves that were less than 1" long. The vendor assured me that it would grow in SoCal and I can remember thinking "a deciduous white oak that will grow in an arid semi-desert climate?" But she was absolutely correct. I have live oaks and cork oaks as well... but the valley oaks destroy them in terms of strength and rate of growth. You just have to give them water. They won't grow in SoCal (in landscape) unless you irrigate them. I assume if you planted them in SoCal they would eventually grow too big to effectively water, and you would experience die-back if not outright death (which is what happens if you plant coast redwood in landscape down there). But here in NoCar I am assuming they will thrive. They grow in foothill areas in north-central California that has a very similar climate; frequent light rain and mild winters.

Thanks for the feedback. When you say acid fertilizer do you mean something like miracle gro miracid (30-10-10) or an organic fertilizer like hollytone? At what strength and frequency do you fertilize? Thanks again.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thanks for the feedback. When you say acid fertilizer do you mean something like miracle gro miracid (30-10-10) or an organic fertilizer like hollytone? At what strength and frequency do you fertilize? Thanks again.

Start with your soil. Oaks in general are acid lovers, so if you are planting in a bonsai mix you will want to use kanuma instead of akadama. For other general soil mixes, make sure to use acidic components like pine bark mini-nuggets, etc.

Then check your water pH. Water in SoCal was brutally alkaline. My water district ranged from pH 8.0 to 8.5 (!) Rainwater is pH 5.4. In a perfect world, you want your water to be slightly acidic... 6.5 or so.

So you need to think about it like an equation... soil pH and water pH indicate your acid fertilizer need. I happen to now live in an area with much better water. Given that I can control the soil pH, I no longer feel that acid fertilizer is as important... for me where I live. So when you say "what strength do you fertilize" it is going to be dependent upon where you live and your water (primarily) and your soil (secondarily).

Long-winded answer to your question I know. I just want to make sure you understand I used acid fertilizer because of where I lived and the needs of my trees there. It may not be the same for all people and all places.

Though I have used Mir-Acid in the past, it is very expensive if you need a ton. I used a product called Super Iron 9-9-9 which I could buy 50 lbs for $35 from my local pro nursery supplier. Note on the bag it says "counteracts alkaline soils". That is a basic way to say "acid fertilizer"

 

[EPM]

Start with your soil. Oaks in general are acid lovers, so if you are planting in a bonsai mix you will want to use kanuma instead of akadama. For other general soil mixes, make sure to use acidic components like pine bark mini-nuggets, etc.

Then check your water pH. Water in SoCal was brutally alkaline. My water district ranged from pH 8.0 to 8.5 (!) Rainwater is pH 5.4. In a perfect world, you want your water to be slightly acidic... 6.5 or so.

So you need to think about it like an equation... soil pH and water pH indicate your acid fertilizer need. I happen to now live in an area with much better water. Given that I can control the soil pH, I no longer feel that acid fertilizer is as important... for me where I live. So when you say "what strength do you fertilize" it is going to be dependent upon where you live and your water (primarily) and your soil (secondarily).

Long-winded answer to your question I know. I just want to make sure you understand I used acid fertilizer because of where I lived and the needs of my trees there. It may not be the same for all people and all places.

Though I have used Mir-Acid in the past, it is very expensive if you need a ton. I used a product called Super Iron 9-9-9 which I could buy 50 lbs for $35 from my local pro nursery supplier. Note on the bag it says "counteracts alkaline soils". That is a basic way to say "acid fertilizer"

View attachment 304942

Thanks so much for the information. There just isn't a lot out there about the care of oaks so this is helpful. I should have give you some background and some context to make your response easier but you covered a lot of bases anyways. My water isn't as bad as yours was pH-wise but it is hard water and has about 180 ppm of alkilinity. I am not using kanuma but have considered it in the past. This year I'm using a mix of cottonseed meal, neem meal and kelp meal and supplementing with low concentration Dyna Gro Folliage pro several times per week. I feel like things have improved since last year but I'm not where I want to be.

Last couple questions for you, if I may: When do you do your pruning? When do you think the best time would be to drastically cut back i.e. a chop? Do these valley oaks backbud easily or not? How many flushes of growth do you get per year? Thanks again. I'll try to make a post with my plants soon and my experience so far.

 

[Hartinez]

Hey Greg, @Bonsai Nut , question about these if you’ve got any input. Today I wired my extending shoots for movement and nothing more. The tree has clearly settled in to its training pot and is continuing to grow. Do you have a best method to ramify quercus lobata? I think I’ll leave growth for this season to thicken up, but Maybe next year begin to cut back and ramify? Do I just cut back to 2 buds for best practice or maybe defoliate all the way down to 2 or 3 leaves? I also was thinking of carving up the top of the original trunk as an Uro/Jin feature? It seems quite established, but maybe I should wait till next year? Thanks.