Odd discovery at the garden center today (massive shimpaku)

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
On my way to the outlet mall, I decide to visit this large garden nursery on the side of the free way and found this...a massive shimpaku. I had no idea they could grow this big. It's been in that pot for a long time because the first inch of soil is essentially just rotting juniper berries. They had several of them but just took one home to see if I can do anything with it. Never seen a shimpaku at any garden center that wasn't a small cutting in a one gallon pot in the overpriced "bonsai" section.

Here are some pictures

When I first spotted it I knew this wasn't just any juniper...
E18F60C9-81B5-4CFD-9929-A91DE3DC9AD6-532-00000022009C7E2A.jpg


Looking at the tags... yep it's a shimpaku
CC435298-00A1-4ADB-8740-F76B4255EEF8-532-000000221DAB41BA.jpg


5B693C03-C418-4D94-8B6C-DDC30E9073D3-532-0000002217FA6A78.jpg


Looking at the foliage...yep it's a shimpaku
7B80C71A-6A7E-4DE2-9347-F99A0F4EB15D-532-000000222F7809DB.jpg


Looing at the trunk...thick and straight but loads of low branches to work with...I'm taking one home...
B978CC89-AE9D-4319-A334-15F0776B2394-532-0000002211C74A6C.jpg


Getting it out of the car....Can't carry it to the backyard so I just drag it on the ground the best I could. It's a heavy beast...
F6A64BEC-2257-4C1E-8231-2A96B4CF097B-532-00000022080A6849.jpg


For perspective next to my bonsai bench. Most of the trees have been moved to protect them from the hard freeze we've been having that's why the benches are empty this time of the year...
A4F3D99B-86A2-45D4-B9BF-C7A3DF0DD1C8-532-000000223B4E49DC.jpg
 
Last edited:

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
Thinking about it some more. The bluish color and the growth habit could mean it is a blaauw. Anyone think so too?
 

bonsaibp

Omono
Messages
1,560
Reaction score
1,309
Location
Northridge CA
USDA Zone
10a
That can be the source of a bunch of trees if you're willing to spend the time. I'd think about spending a few years taking cuttings and airlayers. You could get a bunch of nice juniper whips off that , that would be good for grafting or making little twisted squished junipers.
In any case a good find and crazy cheap too!
 

Bonsai Nut

Nuttier than your average Nut
Messages
12,412
Reaction score
27,823
Location
Charlotte area, North Carolina
USDA Zone
8a
$58?!!!

I can think of a million things to do with that tree :) You will have some work cut out for you due to the straight trunk, but what a score for the price!
 

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
There were a bunch of them too

1 gallon for $10
5 gallon for $25
10 gallon for $60

I could only fit one of those in the car. Now the interesting thing about Juniperus Chinensis Blaauw is also from Japan but introduced by the nursery Blaauw and Company, Boskoop, Holland, hence the name. Now in Japan, what do they call this variety since the only ones I know of are Kishu, shimpaku and itoigawa...
 
Last edited:

nathanbs

Omono
Messages
1,306
Reaction score
29
Location
Altadena, Ca
They are all shimpakus. The varieties are kishu, itoigawa, and several others. What variety are you referring to when you say shimpaku?
 

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
They are all shimpakus. The varieties are kishu, itoigawa, and several others. What variety are you referring to when you say shimpaku?

Please educate me on the "several others"

I know that they are all shimpakus since I have two shimpaku itoigawa, one shimpaku kishu and over 20 straight shimpakus... so what should I call the ones that aren't itoigawa or kishu? I also know about the fudo shimpaku http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/juniperu.htm

Here's another description of the difference between the three itoigawa, kishu and shimpaku

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2...s-among-itoigawa-kishu-and-shimpaku-junipers/

I'd love to learn from someone who has more knowledge on the subject
 
Last edited:

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
My understanding about shimpaku is the following.

They are all of the cypress family Cupressaceae.

They are all juniperus Chinensis (sinensis)

then it breaks down to juniperus sinensis 'shimpaku' vs juniperus sinensis 'kishu shimpaku' vs juniperus sinensis 'itoigawa shimpaku' basically they are cultivars of shimpaku based on which region of Japan they came from. If I am correct the japanese call junipers Miyama byakushin but because all junipers in Japan are of the shimpaku variety they're all called shimpakus...

You can think of it just like Japanese black pine with cultivars including 'Mikawa', 'Kyokko', 'Katsuga', 'Akame', 'Fuji', 'Mi Nishiki', 'Nishiki Tsukasa', 'thunderhead' etc. Yet I believe they are all Kuromatsus in Japan.
 
Last edited:

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
To clarify what I meant

Family: cypressacae
Genus: Juniperus
Species: chinensis (sinensis)
Variety: shimpaku (sargentii)
Cultivar: none vs kishu vs itoigawa
 
Last edited:

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,959
Reaction score
45,883
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
My understanding about shimpaku is the following.

They are all of the cypress family Cupressaceae.

They are all juniperus Chinensis (sinensis)

then it breaks down to juniperus sinensis 'shimpaku' vs juniperus sinensis 'kishu shimpaku' vs juniperus sinensis 'itoigawa shimpaku' basically they are cultivars of shimpaku based on which region of Japan they came from. If I am correct the japanese call junipers Miyama byakushin but because all junipers in Japan are of the shimpaku variety they're all called shimpakus...

You can think of it just like Japanese black pine with cultivars including 'Hachi Gen', 'Kyokko', 'Kyokko Yatsubusa', 'Katsuga', 'Akame', 'Fuji', 'Mi Nishiki', 'Nishiki Tsukasa', 'Tai Hei', and 'Hayabusa'. Yet I believe they are all Kuromatsus in Japan.

in Latin terms, you are correct on Juniperus chinensis.

Shimpaku is a nickname (shin= authentic, paku= oak) for this type of juniper, I don't think it's identified formally as a cultivar, though we treat it like one in the bonsai world. I'd be curious to know this for a fact.

Itoigawa, Fudo, and Kishu are informally named for the regions they're found, I do not think they are formally cultivars.

Saying Itoigawa shimpaku isn't wrong, it's just a nickname for a scale juniper found in that region (I believe the river valley was called Itoigawa, it's something else now...it's north).

In my opinion, a case could definitely be made for Itoigawa being identified as a different variety, and we cultivate it as such, but the Japanese seem much less interested in Latin names. This leads to plenty of confusion for those of us in the West who have a need to categorize!
 

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
Very interesting...thanks for adding some reference .

if we are dealing with the variety Sargentii, should we consider shimpaku, kishu and itoigawa cultivars? or should we consider shimpaku a variety and the others cultivars. I agree that itoigawa should probably have it's own variety because of how different it is from the other "shimpakus"

going through the USDA website they dont have any other varieties for juniperus chinensis though. I don't think they care much at all about the different varieties ie tortulosa, pfitzeriana, old gold etc...
 
Last edited:

nathanbs

Omono
Messages
1,306
Reaction score
29
Location
Altadena, Ca
Please educate me on the "several others"

I know that they are all shimpakus since I have two shimpaku itoigawa, one shimpaku kishu and over 20 straight shimpakus... so what should I call the ones that aren't itoigawa or kishu? I also know about the fudo shimpaku http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/juniperu.htm

Here's another description of the difference between the three itoigawa, kishu and shimpaku

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2...s-among-itoigawa-kishu-and-shimpaku-junipers/

I'd love to learn from someone who has more knowledge on the subject

I cannot educate you in the several others otherwise I would have referred to them by something other than several others. My confusion is when you refer to just "straight" shimpakus. I commented on Beians blog about the same thing as he refers to it like you. In southern California we rarely if never see anything other than kishu or itoigawa so maybe it's my inexperience to question you guys. But I venture to say that what you refer to as kishu and straight we refer to both as kishu. Wasnt trying to be rude
 

nathanbs

Omono
Messages
1,306
Reaction score
29
Location
Altadena, Ca
To add something that may or may not add confusion or perhaps answer a question. I just looked at Brian's blog and the different varieties and I remembered Roy Nagatoshi explaining to me to be careful when grafting and taking cuttings as there are 2 types of foliage on a kishu and if you choose the weaker, looser foliage(looks like what Brian refers to as shimpaku) then all of the new growth will be weaker, leggier, coarser versus the tighter, balled foliage on what Brian refers to as "kishu"
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,959
Reaction score
45,883
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
To add something that may or may not add confusion or perhaps answer a question. I just looked at Brian's blog and the different varieties and I remembered Roy Nagatoshi explaining to me to be careful when grafting and taking cuttings as there are 2 types of foliage on a kishu and if you choose the weaker, looser foliage(looks like what Brian refers to as shimpaku) then all of the new growth will be weaker, leggier, coarser versus the tighter, balled foliage on what Brian refers to as "kishu"

Thats interesting. Look at Peter Tea's post on the shimpaku he just prepared for Kokufu...it's the ropier foliage, and he discusses the three foliage types after the 6th photo.

Ive been able to tighten and plump up ropy foliage somewhat by placing them in all day full sun. Here's an entry on an experiment I ran on two shimpakus for a couple years:
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/shimpaku-and-sun-exposure/
 
Last edited:

buddhamonk

Chumono
Messages
748
Reaction score
13
Location
Ptown oregon
I believe the tree i got today is a juniperus chinensis blaauws which origins really are unknown. Is it really a cultivar from Japan or an " x media" meaning a cross between two different cultivars...
 
Top Bottom