Old but new

GrimLore

Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Messages
8,502
Reaction score
7,453
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
I was happy to receive this Pietro Gardone V.T. Beretta 7.65 model 70 from Grandmother along with the story. Grandfather bought it in the early 60's and fired it once and put it in a drawer where it sat since. He hated it saying it was built "upside down" and "backwards"...
I know it is a belly gun and it is going to take me awhile to remove all of the encrusted grease which seems to have hardened but been working on it by breaking it down with oil.
He was left-handed and being right handed I understand what he meant :rolleyes: Would have been damn near impossible for him to handle it properly...

Mil Spec, Imported by JLG in 1963, built in the Mil Facility Beretta had separate for star stamped Mil Spec gun production. That plant had never allowed being toured unlike the plant they had just down the road.

IMG_0933.JPG

IMG_0936.JPG

Now to find a decent holster, rounds and extra clip ordered :)

Grimmy
 

berobinson82

Omono
Messages
1,515
Reaction score
441
Location
Central Virginia, US
USDA Zone
7a
It beautiful! Good luck on finding a properly fitting holster. Might need to special order it. Kydex is king for a good fit.

Pew Pew,

B
 

GrimLore

Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Messages
8,502
Reaction score
7,453
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
It beautiful! Good luck on finding a properly fitting holster. Might need to special order it. Kydex is king for a good fit.

Pew Pew,

B

Thank you, and thank you for the info - I will follow up as I don't see getting an in/out concealed belt being an option other then custom. All other parts though can be found newly manufactured or used, even grips.

Grimmy
 

plant_dr

Chumono
Messages
926
Reaction score
902
Location
Orem, UT
USDA Zone
5
My wife's late stepfather was an avid gun collector. After he died in '12 I had hopes of inheriting something cool. Nope. Since I'm the farthest away and couldn't make it when things were getting divided out, I got what no one else wanted. A Lorcin L22 pistol... little Saturday night special deal. Isn't it cute? 20170118_171053.jpg Better than nothing though
 
Last edited:

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,098
Reaction score
30,141
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
I figured I'd share my "Grandpa Gun" as well. It has an interesting history if you'd like to look. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB_Vis
This weapon was pried from a dead Nazi soldier's hand. Check the insignia. Not worth a ton of money but worth a ton to me. View attachment 129443

View attachment 129442
Any idea where or when the gun was acquired? I've been a WWII nut since I was a kid and these first hand stories make the history palpable.
 

berobinson82

Omono
Messages
1,515
Reaction score
441
Location
Central Virginia, US
USDA Zone
7a
Any idea where or when the gun was acquired? I've been a WWII nut since I was a kid and these first hand stories make the history palpable.

So this pistol actually came home with my great uncle. In conversing with my father just now, the story is that he (Great Unc) brought this home as a soldier. He laughed to recount that he told a great tale of struggle and close quarter's combat. To the victor went the spoils. We both agree, and I'm sure you will as well, that the fight scene would make a much better tale than would "I found it in a ditch". The world will never know exactly what the story was; it did come from the battlefield however. Wish I had more concrete, we may have to settle on stucco.

Cheers,

B
 

Dav4

Drop Branch Murphy
Messages
13,098
Reaction score
30,141
Location
SE MI- Bonsai'd for 12 years both MA and N GA
USDA Zone
6a
So this pistol actually came home with my great uncle. In conversing with my father just now, the story is that he (Great Unc) brought this home as a soldier. He laughed to recount that he told a great tale of struggle and close quarter's combat. To the victor went the spoils. We both agree, and I'm sure you will as well, that the fight scene would make a much better tale than would "I found it in a ditch". The world will never know exactly what the story was; it did come from the battlefield however. Wish I had more concrete, we may have to settle on stucco.

Cheers,

B
If I came home with that thing, you can bet your ass the story would have been full of near death experiences at close quarters...true or not;). I was actually wondering where and at what point in the war was it acquired.... Normandy beach, North Africa, etc...that's what makes the pistol so cool in my mind.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,265
Reaction score
22,438
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
I figured I'd share my "Grandpa Gun" as well. It has an interesting history if you'd like to look. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB_Vis
This weapon was pried from a dead Nazi soldier's hand. Check the insignia. Not worth a ton of money but worth a ton to me. View attachment 129443

View attachment 129442
you've probably done the research, but the gun has an interesting development history
http://www.gunsandammo.com/historical/the-vis-35-radom-polands-pistol/
Polish factory captured by the Nazis...
 

berobinson82

Omono
Messages
1,515
Reaction score
441
Location
Central Virginia, US
USDA Zone
7a
If I came home with that thing, you can bet your ass the story would have been full of near death experiences at close quarters...true or not;). I was actually wondering where and at what point in the war was it acquired.... Normandy beach, North Africa, etc...that's what makes the pistol so cool in my mind.

I'm thinking the exact same thing! No I didn't walk into a tree branch while drunken and looking at a text, this scar is from the dude that jumped out from behind the tree and attacked. You oughta see that SOB though ;)

I'll see if Dad knows where he was deployed. I'm glad to be able to access him readily.

you've probably done the research, but the gun has an interesting development history
http://www.gunsandammo.com/historical/the-vis-35-radom-polands-pistol/
Polish factory captured by the Nazis...

Yes! When first received, I did a discovery. You can see that the Nazi stamps are superimposed over serial numbers already imprinted in the slide. Post production modifications. It would only be made cooler if it had tally marks on it.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,265
Reaction score
22,438
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
I'm thinking the exact same thing! No I didn't walk into a tree branch while drunken and looking at a text, this scar is from the dude that jumped out from behind the tree and attacked. You oughta see that SOB though ;)

I'll see if Dad knows where he was deployed. I'm glad to be able to access him readily.



Yes! When first received, I did a discovery. You can see that the Nazi stamps are superimposed over serial numbers already imprinted in the slide. Post production modifications. It would only be made cooler if it had tally marks on it.
Can't tell, but are the marks further down the slide and on the frame Eagles? Apparently the Polish eagles are on the older, more desirable, guns.
 

GrimLore

Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Messages
8,502
Reaction score
7,453
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
A Lorcin L22 pistol... little Saturday night special deal. Isn't it cute?

Actually is and seems to be in very good condition - serious not bad! Side note on that one if it is a 9 round they are known to fire if dropped, one of the major reasons they went bankrupt due to lawsuits two times folding the company. At one point they made more handguns then anyone in the USA as they were the most affordable. Parts are still widely available too ;)

Grimmy
 

GrimLore

Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Messages
8,502
Reaction score
7,453
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
Not worth a ton of money but worth a ton to me.

Cool piece and piece of history indeed!

Can't tell, but are the marks further down the slide and on the frame Eagles?

Falcons, and no - most any gun made to any Mil Spec has a matching stamp on the slide/barrel assembly and the action or remainder of the gun. It indicates they were "matched" and fitted unlike a lot of standard production guns. The marks vary greatly between manufacturers but match top and bottom.

Grimmy
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,265
Reaction score
22,438
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Cool piece and piece of history indeed!



Falcons, and no - most any gun made to any Mil Spec has a matching stamp on the slide/barrel assembly and the action or remainder of the gun. It indicates they were "matched" and fitted unlike a lot of standard production guns. The marks vary greatly between manufacturers but match top and bottom.

Grimmy
Read the history. Older guns retained the Polish Eagle from the original maker that was taken by the Nazis. At least that's the way I read it. Older guns retain the Polish eagle...
 

GrimLore

Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Messages
8,502
Reaction score
7,453
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
Read the history. Older guns retained the Polish Eagle from the original maker that was taken by the Nazis. At least that's the way I read it. Older guns retain the Polish eagle...

I see no reference to the Polish White Eagle although there is definitely other distinguishing characteristics between the units produced and by whom as follows;

"The Polish designation for this pistol was pistolet wz. 35 Vis, and the Germans designation for it was 9 mm Pistole 35(p), the suffix p stands for polnisch(Polish). Originally it was named WIS which is an acronym of the two Polish designers names, Piotr Wilniewczyc and Jan Skrzypinski. It was decided soon afterward though to change the name to Vis, which meant "force" in Latin, with the wz. prefix designation standing for wzor(pattern or model).

When the Germans occupied Poland in 1939, they continued the manufacturer of the VIS 35 and between 312,000 and 380,000 were produced and then used by the German paratroopers and police. During this time, the Germans feared that the Polish technicians whom were being forced to manufacturer this pistol might supply the resistance with weapons. So the Germans moved production of barrels and the final assembly of the VIS 35 to the Steyr plant in Austria. Still, the underground supply of VIS 35 parts as well as completed weapons found their way to the Polish resistance and was used in conflicts such as the Warsaw Uprising.

German produced VIS pistols were issued in four different series or grades due to the attempts to simplify and speed up production. As the war progressed and started going badly for the Germans, they moved the complete production of the VIS 35 to the Steyr plant in Austria in late 1944. At this plant, the last simplified model of the fourth series was produced which had no inscriptions at all besides the bnz stamping. The Pistole 35(p) actually remained in production until a month before the European war ended in May of 1945. Generally and as we have seen with other arms produced by all sides during conflicts, the wartime pistols were of much lower quality than the prewar specimens.

The four different grades of the Polish Radom can generally be classified as seen below. I say generally due to the fact that some collectors do not consider grade 1 pistols starting with the first manufactured Radoms but rather with those pistols first produced by the Germans. While other collectors consider grades 3 and 4 as being the same. So there is a lot of interpretation written into the grading system and nothing is set in stone. I also did not include in this grading system the "Resistance Radoms" that were assembled by the Polish resistance from parts that were stolen from the Radom factory. Nor did I include the custom built Radoms that were offered by Z.M. Lucznik. The letters "Z.M." indicate Zakłady Metalowe or Metal Works. Some collectors classify these pistols as the "Reissue Radoms". So generally, the four different grades of the Radom pistol is as follows....

Grade 1 = These pistols were produced before WWII between 1935 and 1939 and will not usually have any German markings. All parts will have a high quality of bluing except for the barrel, recoil spring and the recoil spring guide which are polished white. The grip panels are checkered hard rubber. The shoulder stock slot, lanyard ring, decocker and disassembly lever are present. On the left side of the slide it is stamped "F.B. RADOM" and then the year of production underneath(1935-39), then the Polish national eagle stamp, and on the right of that it will be stamped "VIS wz.35" and "pat. Nr.15567".

Grade 2 = These pistols were produced by the Germans between 1939 and 1941. The pistols were manufactured mostly from original pre-war parts and might retain some Polish markings on them. All parts will have a lessor quality of bluing then the Grade 1 examples but the finish and quality of the pistol is still very good. The barrel, recoil spring and the recoil spring guide are polished white. The grip panels can be a checkered black plastic, checkered brown plastic, fine or coarse checkered hardwood. The Lanyard ring, decocker and disassembly lever are present but the shoulder stock slot has been omitted on all but the very early examples. The slide markings have been changed to "F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 35 Pat. Nr.15567" and then underneath that is "P.35(p)" The "P.35(p)" stamp on the left side of the slide has been eliminated from the slide legend on late grade II pistols.

Grade 3 = These pistols were produced by the Germans between 1941 and 1943. The bluing on the parts of grade 3 pistols was done over a rough or a poorly polished surface. Early examples will have a blued finish while on others, the blued parts will be the rear sight, slide stop, magazine release catch, hammer, hammer release, and grip screws. The pistol frame, slide, and magazine will be parkerized. The barrel, recoil spring, and recoil spring guide are polished white. The lanyard ring is still present but the decocker, disassembly lever and shoulder stock slot has been omitted. The grip panels can be a checkered brown or red plastic, fine or coarse checkered hardwood, or a grooved hardwood on late production. The slide markings are "F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 35 Pat. Nr.15567".

Grade 4 = These pistols were produced by the Germans between 1943 and 1945. By this time, the Russians were knocking on the door and production was moved to the Steyr plant in Austria. These pistols exhibit the worst quality of finish. The grips panels are usually a brown plastic or wood and be absent of the "FB" and "VIS" monograms. The lanyard ring is still present but the disassembly lever, decocker and shoulder stock slot has been omitted. These pistols are found with a crude one piece recoil spring guide instead of the telescopic one that was normally used, and the magazine follower is from the P-38 pistol. The slide markings on early examples will be "F.B. RADOM VIS Mod. 35 Pat. Nr.15567" while late versions just have "bnz".

After the war and now being under Soviet control, the People's Republic of Poland took the Soviet TT 33 pistol as the official sidearm. The TT 33 was considered much inferior to the VIS 35, especially from a point of ergonomics and reliability. The reason for the switch as you may have guessed, was political and the Soviet influence was a very decisive factor in this decision."

The symbol you are looking at is;

The Waffenamt 77 stamp was issued to lyo which is a German code for Kromolowski & Sohne which was located in Radom, Poland and to the Steyr plant located in Austria.

The purpose of the Waffenamt stamps was to prove that each firearm and its components met the quality standards set forth by the Heereswaffenamt or Army Weapons Office. In order to carry this out, inspectors were assigned to individual firms for large corporations or to a specific area if there were several smaller manufacturers. These inspectors and their Waffenamt or WaA for short were responsible to the Heereswaffenamt rather than the manufacturer to which they were assigned. Each weapons office can be correctly identified by the individual acceptance stamp they used.

As I was saying a Mil Spec verification...

Grimmy
 
Last edited:

GrimLore

Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Messages
8,502
Reaction score
7,453
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
Read the history. Older guns retained the Polish Eagle from the original maker that was taken by the Nazis. At least that's the way I read it. Older guns retain the Polish eagle...

oooooooooooops, on that point correct but that mark is as I said at the end of my post :oops: ;)

On the left side of the slide it is stamped "F.B. RADOM" and then the year of production underneath(1935-39), then the Polish national eagle stamp, and on the right of that it will be stamped "VIS wz.35" and "pat. Nr.15567".

Just noted I was mistaken and wanted to point it out. It has been a long time since I dealt with old firearms...

Grimmy
 
Top Bottom