Old Scroll for Remount

[kakejiku]

I purchased this with the intention of remounting and reselling. I got this one because this is the exact type of painting that goes well paired with a bonsai. It is very simple, yet complex. Detailed with the fewest strokes possible.

So I guess we can play around with this and try to discuss display in a little detail.
1. What season does this bird depict in Japanese culture? Does that vary from what season you would associate it with where you live?
2. What tree and styling would you pair with this?
3. With the above two questions answered, how would you choose to have the painting reframed (mounted into a scroll)? In other words, what scroll style and cloth colors would you choose and why?

Looking forward to your responses...

 

[Poink88]

pic(s) didn't attach

 

[kakejiku]

Oops no pics

 

[kakejiku]

The crickets are chirping..

 

[fourteener]

It's really beat up, it's really really white, and even some of the most committed bonsaists don't use scrolls much. Sorry!

 

[A Random User]

I will bite...
For me here in Florida it reminds me of a bird we have here
That during the beginning of the last century was hunted in mass
Volumes for its feathers to adorn ladies hats. It is the snowy egret...
Look it up, very pretty...
They are often found around wetlands. Where in the early morning
Because of the amount of dew and moisture in the air is often very
Foggy. Which for me would fit your image. Now obviously you know
I am not very familiar with traditional Japanese customs. For me
Because of my vision, I would use colors like a greyish blue, white,
To represent the fog, and a yellowish orange color to represent two
Things... the color of the long blades of grass that are often found
Growing next to the water, or the sun slightly beginning to rise, and to
Begin to burn off the fog. A site that truly is to behold.... very magical !

For me... surprisingly enough, I would use this as a spring display. Reason,
If a day were a year and the hours represented seasons, then the morning
Surely would be the spring... the awakening of what was to come.

That's it...

 

[A Random User]

It's really beat up, it's really really white, and even some of the most committed bonsaists don't use scrolls much. Sorry!

This is a shame... I don't think it is understood how well
One really can help portray to a viewer a sense of mood, feeling,
Location etc...
If I have a tree that is rugged, one might get the idea that it
Could be growing in the mountains, even hanging from a cliff.
But, if one has a mountain scene behind it, there is no guessing...
It it there, hanging from that cliff !!!

 

[fourteener]

This is a shame... I don't think it is understood how well
One really can help portray to a viewer a sense of mood, feeling,
Location etc...
If I have a tree that is rugged, one might get the idea that it
Could be growing in the mountains, even hanging from a cliff.
But, if one has a mountain scene behind it, there is no guessing...
It it there, hanging from that cliff !!!

I really get how it would add to presentation. I have no indoor display to ever be in need of one. The club that I am part of does not use them in our shows, so I have no need for one there. I see how it adds to the depth of presentation. I'm not saying they aren't nice, but I am one of those pretty serious bonsai people that would have to look very hard to ever need one. Maybe someday! I'm more apt to track down a three foot rusty flywheel to display my tree on outside, than buy a scroll for a display.

 

[A Random User]

I really get how it would add to presentation. I have no indoor display to ever be in need of one. The club that I am part of does not use them in our shows, so I have no need for one there. I see how it adds to the depth of presentation. I'm not saying they aren't nice, but I am one of those pretty serious bonsai people that would have to look very hard to ever need one. Maybe someday! I'm more apt to track down a three foot rusty flywheel to display my tree on outside, than buy a scroll for a display.

I understand, we all have managed to come to do bonsai for a various number
Of reasons, and often it is these reasons that make us really appreciate certain
Aspects of bonsai... just like in every art, there is always something for everyone,
And not everyone is going to appreciate the exact same things.

 

[Eric Schrader]

It really is a shame that this forum is so lacking in serious dialog not relating to fertilizer and soil. If that bird were advocating using Akadama or simultaneous use of cakes and miracle gro you'd get some more replies.

Anyway - It looks like a winter scene to me. In my three trips to Japan I recall seeing snow around wetlands as I rode on trains. I can't say I ever saw an egret or crane but the scene is quite monotone which indicates winter to me. Also, the bird seems to be resting and the feathers are all puffed out such that it's colder than if the bird were standing with feathers slicked back like it was hunting.

I could imagine this in an early-spring display or a winter display. The possibilities for what tree are almost endless, perhaps a favorite of mine would be a literati black pine leaning to the right with the scroll on the right - As-if the tree were leaning over the shore or marsh where the bird is resting.

There is a woman who does scroll paintings here in the bay area - they are small scrolls usually depicting birds or leaves or similar. She is Japanese I believe and can be seen at all the major bonsai shows where there are vendors. The scrolls are perhaps non-traditional in that the painting is on a flat piece of cardboard or similar that does not roll with the rest of the scroll.

I don't have the experience to comment on the cloth that should be used. Perhaps taking cues from the parts that are worn out would be a good place to start.

I'm adding the images below: I could see your scroll as a more-contemplative alternative to the energetic pose of the two birds in this scroll:

 

[kakejiku]

It's really beat up, it's really really white, and even some of the most committed bonsaists don't use scrolls much. Sorry!

I would hope you would go and read the original post...I purchased with the intent to remount...I can understand some bonsaiists are not interested in scrolls, but thinking through this process can be beneficial in other aspects of bonsai even if you do not ever intend to do a display.

 

[kakejiku]

I will bite...
For me here in Florida it reminds me of a bird we have here
That during the beginning of the last century was hunted in mass
Volumes for its feathers to adorn ladies hats. It is the snowy egret...
Look it up, very pretty...
They are often found around wetlands. Where in the early morning
Because of the amount of dew and moisture in the air is often very
Foggy. Which for me would fit your image. Now obviously you know
I am not very familiar with traditional Japanese customs. For me
Because of my vision, I would use colors like a greyish blue, white,
To represent the fog, and a yellowish orange color to represent two
Things... the color of the long blades of grass that are often found
Growing next to the water, or the sun slightly beginning to rise, and to
Begin to burn off the fog. A site that truly is to behold.... very magical !

For me... surprisingly enough, I would use this as a spring display. Reason,
If a day were a year and the hours represented seasons, then the morning
Surely would be the spring... the awakening of what was to come.

That's it...

Very good imagery and explanation. I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer. It is the fact that you can create something that strikes a chord with your own personal experiences that counts...

What kind of tree were you thinking of a bald cypress or a crape myrtle? I am not from Florida, so I do not know what type of bonsai would work in the wetlands you have done an excellent job describing. What styling would you have for the tree?

You also mentioned two colors for the scroll...So were you thinking having it done in a Nidan Hyougu, two step style or Maru Hyougu style with the Ichimonji as the other cloth?

 

[kakejiku]

It really is a shame that this forum is so lacking in serious dialog not relating to fertilizer and soil. If that bird were advocating using Akadama or simultaneous use of cakes and miracle gro you'd get some more replies.

Anyway - It looks like a winter scene to me. In my three trips to Japan I recall seeing snow around wetlands as I rode on trains. I can't say I ever saw an egret or crane but the scene is quite monotone which indicates winter to me. Also, the bird seems to be resting and the feathers are all puffed out such that it's colder than if the bird were standing with feathers slicked back like it was hunting.

I could imagine this in an early-spring display or a winter display. The possibilities for what tree are almost endless, perhaps a favorite of mine would be a literati black pine leaning to the right with the scroll on the right - As-if the tree were leaning over the shore or marsh where the bird is resting.

There is a woman who does scroll paintings here in the bay area - they are small scrolls usually depicting birds or leaves or similar. She is Japanese I believe and can be seen at all the major bonsai shows where there are vendors. The scrolls are perhaps non-traditional in that the painting is on a flat piece of cardboard or similar that does not roll with the rest of the scroll.

I don't have the experience to comment on the cloth that should be used. Perhaps taking cues from the parts that are worn out would be a good place to start.

I'm adding the images below: I could see your scroll as a more-contemplative alternative to the energetic pose of the two birds in this scroll:

Because I do not do bonsai, I have no expertise about soil discussions, but this is probably just as important to keeping your bonsai vigorous and healthy as a discussion on displaying your bonsai.

Good eye on the painting...I viewed this as a heron 鷺 (Sagi in Japanese), but like the other poster it could be an egret. I also thought this to be a winter scene, but typically the Sagi is viewed as a summer bird, because many species migrate to warmer climates in winter. A few species are there year round.

www.maine.gov/dep/land/watershed/buffplantlist.pdf This site said that the black pine does grow along the steams and marshes...So I think that would be a good choice.

The painting is quite wide, and my concern with using a literati styling would be that the painting would dominate over the bonsai, but I guess it would depend on the literati...

As note on the post about the other scrolls on cardboard, (which is called shikishi 色紙 in Japanese) it is still a scroll. It is called a Shikishikake 色紙掛け　or tansakukake 丹作掛け (like the one in your picture) They are still proper Kakejiku (wallscrolls), although they are not as commonly used for display in formal Japanese competitions (at least from what I have observed).

What are your thoughts on cloth colors and styles if any...?

 

[markyscott]

To me the bird looks like a snowy egret. Here on the gulf coast we see it all year round, but I mostly associate it with summer time and the wetlands. It's a fishing bird and commonly wades in shallow water along creeks and streams. So I guess I'd try and pair it with the kind of trees that grow near the water - bald cypress or black olive. I think it would also be nice with some kind of water feature - duckweed, or some kind of swamp flower - blue-eyed grass or maybe a violet trilobe.

Scott

 

[kakejiku]

To me the bird looks like a snowy egret. Here on the gulf coast we see it all year round, but I mostly associate it with summer time and the wetlands. It's a fishing bird and commonly wades in shallow water along creeks and streams. So I guess I'd try and pair it with the kind of trees that grow near the water - bald cypress or black olive. I think it would also be nice with some kind of water feature - duckweed, or some kind of swamp flower - blue-eyed grass or maybe a violet trilobe.

Scott

Thank you for the reply...I think we should understand that Sagi is a general term for both Herons and Egrets...(See lists of different Japanese names of Egrets and HErons and notice the similarity with sagi character)

More important thing is to define the use of the scroll. It is a summer bird to you, but to another viewer the painting seemed to be a winter scene. If contradicting can I reframe it to bring a stronger feeling of season or neutralize the seasonality so that it could be multifunctional?

I have always stuck by the fact that before you define the accent, you need to define the formality of the display by defining both the tree you will use and the styling...Then you can define the other points (Pot, stand/jiita, scroll, accent(s) etc.) Your suggestions for accents would all be appropriate, but without knowing the tree and styling a pot and stand to select for that accent will be difficult to accomplish.
さぎ 《鷺》 (n) (uk) heron (Ardeidae) [Edit][Ex][G][GI][A][W]
その沼にはサギがたくさん住んでいる。 Lots of herons live in the marsh.[Amend]
アオサギ 《青鷺》 【あおさぎ】 (n) (uk) grey heron (Ardea cinerea); gray heron [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W] [L][G][GI][A]
アマサギ 《尼鷺; 甘鷺》 【あまさぎ】 (n) (uk) cattle egret (Bubulcus ibis) [Edit][G][GI][A] [G][GI][A]
烏鷺 【うろ】 (n) (1) crows and herons; (2) black and white [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W]
黒鷺 【くろさぎ】 (n) eastern reef heron [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W]
こさぎ 《小鷺》 (n) (uk) little egret (Egretta garzetta) [Edit][G][GI][A][W]
ゴイサギ 《五位鷺》 【ごいさぎ】 (n) (uk) black-crowned night heron (Nycticorax nycticorax); night heron [Edit][L][G][GI][A][JW] [L][G][GI][A]
白鷺 【しらさぎ; はくろ】 (n) generic name for herons with all-white plumage (inc. egrets) [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W] [JW]
大鷺 【だいさぎ】 (n) great (white) egret [Edit][L][G][GI][A]
中鷺 【ちゅうさぎ】 (n) intermediate heron (Mesophoyx intermedia) [Edit][G][GI][A][W]

 

[markyscott]

Thank you for the reply...I think we should understand that Sagi is a general term for both Herons and Egrets...(See lists of different Japanese names of Egrets and HErons and notice the similarity with sagi character)

More important thing is to define the use of the scroll. It is a summer bird to you, but to another viewer the painting seemed to be a winter scene. If contradicting can I reframe it to bring a stronger feeling of season or neutralize the seasonality so that it could be multifunctional?

I have always stuck by the fact that before you define the accent, you need to define the formality of the display by defining both the tree you will use and the styling...Then you can define the other points (Pot, stand/jiita, scroll, accent(s) etc.) Your suggestions for accents would all be appropriate, but without knowing the tree and styling a pot and stand to select for that accent will be difficult to accomplish.
さぎ 《鷺》 (n) (uk) heron (Ardeidae) [Edit][Ex][G][GI][A][W]
その沼にはサギがたくさん住んでいる。 Lots of herons live in the marsh.[Amend]
アオサギ 《青鷺》 【あおさぎ】 (n) (uk) grey heron (Ardea cinerea); gray heron [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W] [L][G][GI][A]
アマサギ 《尼鷺; 甘鷺》 【あまさぎ】 (n) (uk) cattle egret (Bubulcus ibis) [Edit][G][GI][A] [G][GI][A]
烏鷺 【うろ】 (n) (1) crows and herons; (2) black and white [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W]
黒鷺 【くろさぎ】 (n) eastern reef heron [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W]
こさぎ 《小鷺》 (n) (uk) little egret (Egretta garzetta) [Edit][G][GI][A][W]
ゴイサギ 《五位鷺》 【ごいさぎ】 (n) (uk) black-crowned night heron (Nycticorax nycticorax); night heron [Edit][L][G][GI][A][JW] [L][G][GI][A]
白鷺 【しらさぎ; はくろ】 (n) generic name for herons with all-white plumage (inc. egrets) [Edit][L][G][GI][A][W] [JW]
大鷺 【だいさぎ】 (n) great (white) egret [Edit][L][G][GI][A]
中鷺 【ちゅうさぎ】 (n) intermediate heron (Mesophoyx intermedia) [Edit][G][GI][A][W]

Thank you. Enlightening as always. I hadn't a specific tree or style in mind - I was thinking of various species that grew in environments I associate with the egret here on the gulf coast. But I'm curious - how would you frame your scroll if I told you that it was a formal upright? Would you do something different if I told you it was a literati?

Thanks
Scott

 

[kakejiku]

Thank you. Enlightening as always. I hadn't a specific tree or style in mind - I was thinking of various species that grew in environments I associate with the egret here on the gulf coast. But I'm curious - how would you frame your scroll if I told you that it was a formal upright? Would you do something different if I told you it was a literati?

Thanks
Scott

An excellent question...and unequivocally I would say absolutely the scroll design should be different based on the tree....

If you recall in a previous post I spoke about the Formal (Shin 真), Semi-formal (Gyou 行), and Informal (Sou 草) aspect of art classification in Japan. This is a concept that seems to be universal across a broad spectrum of art mediums in Japan. Scrolls are no exception.

The system of display I study is called Gaddou, and it takes this further by not only classifying formality of Tree by species and styling, but also pots, stands, accents and scrolls...

So you have posed to me two scenarios, a formal upright (Chokkan), versus a literati (Bunjin). You have not given me a species, but I will use Black Pine for both. An evergreen in the Gaddou system is classified as a Formal　（Shin）. The second part of the equation is the styling. In the case of the Chokkan, it is a formal styling (Shin) and the second literati is an informal (Sou) styling. The displays in the Gaddou system would be defined as Shin no Shin for the Black Pine Formal Upright, and Shin no Sou for the Black Pine Literati styling.

So let's look at the tree characteristics. The formal tree has a robust, healthy look to it, with a thick trunk and well developed branches and foliage pads. It can be paired with accents that are a little more robust and formal, without taking away from it.

The literati, has a weak, haggard? look to it, with few branches and less well developed foliage pads. It would be better to pair it with informal, less robust accents.

The scroll in it's current framing is a Yamato Hyougu style, which is a Gyou no Shin (Semi Formal, Formal classification). It is wide, but a Black Pine Formal Upright could pair well with the scroll, even though the scroll style is a little more robust and not distract from the main tree.

The literati on the other hand, would likely be overpowered by the Yamato Hyougu style scroll. A more subtle scroll style such as the Maru Hyougu which is an informal scroll style would be better suited for this display. Like the Red Pine pictured below. Try to imagine this as a black pine with the Egret painting in it's current style and I think you could begin to comprehend what I am saying that the tree would no longer be the primary piece in the display.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13752-Man-in-a-Scroll-II

So if it was an informal styling I might consider trimming the painting on the left hand side, and making it just surrounded by one cloth, to make the scroll informal to match with the styling of the tree.

I hope that is clear and not muddying the water or making it more confusing.

 

[kakejiku]

Progress on the remount.

Remember the painting I bought at auction of the Sagi 鷺 which is a heron or egret in Japan. This is the work I did today. First I cut away all the borders. I could have removed by applying water, but this was sufficient.

Next I removed all the old backing paper called Urauchi from the painting.

Lastly, I applied a new first layer of paper called Hada Urauchi to the painting.

 

[GrimLore]

Love to see more as that piece looks very old and has a very nice quality to it.

Grimmy

 

[kakejiku]

Love to see more as that piece looks very old and has a very nice quality to it.

Grimmy

Thanks for the reply.
It is still on the drying board...and I have not gotten any responses as to the cloth colors except from Sawgrass...

Still deciding at the moment what I should do with it in regards to design. It is a very old painting I think, but need to do more research to find out about the artist to date it.

Will post when I work on it next.