Olive bonsai 5

[maroun.c]

Got this one from a nursery few days back.


Repoted yesterday
Was expecting an even bigger trunk base under soil looking at shoots but turned out these were just popping from the roots around it.
Roots looked great for soil it's in.


Yet I couldn't make a good job at teasing and spreading the roots and ended up losing a bit more than I wanted as they were too tangled




Planted in a pumice and clay balls




And a top view showing trunk


Few questions I need suggestion for.
- wondering between keeping the trunk and reducing the top branches severely (might be too high of a bonsai)
Or chopping trunk at middle or higher to keep the nice trunt movement and develop a broom style
Or taking out the trunk and developing few of existing branches at base into a lower and wider tree. That's not how most olives I see are but have seen some.nice low olive bonsais with a nice base and no real trunk.
- roots flare: with a wide base going into the soil do u still work on root flare ? Was a bit tricky with initial repot as roots were too tangled hoping I can do better in next repot in couple years ?
If I need to chop the trunk or branches, is it ok proceeding now after disturbing the roots or do I wait till next year? I kept the low branches to help feed the tree in case I chop the trunk or should I clean them up to push tree to rebud from trunk or base. Do I place in sun at this stage? Fertilize?
Sorry many questions.
Thank u.

 

[Shibui]

You have already cut all the other olives quite low so why not try a higher trunk this time and see what happens. You can always cut lower after a couple of years but it is much harder to cut higher after initially chopping low.

When we collect feral olives we do trunk chop and root reduction at the same time and we usually cut off far more roots than you have this time. This means that Olive can tolerate chop after root pruning.
Initial root pruning is always traumatic (for the beginner, not the tree) You can always cut more roots when you are more confident.
I would get rid of many of those suckers growing from the roots. Even if you want a clump style tree the shoots should be growing from the woody base, not the roots.
Low buds usually only grow well when upper branches are pruned hard so if you want some more low growth you will have to prune the top at some stage.
Full sun is hard to gauge because I don't know how hot your days are or how well you water. Olives can normally manage full sun after root pruning but maybe a little afternoon shade just in case?
Normally don't feed freshly repotted trees for a few weeks.

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for the info.
Will cleanup the suckers then.
Definitely in for couple trees with a good trunk and a broom shape.
By trying a higher trunk do u mean working with existing branches or still chopping trunk up high and regrowing the branches?
Were near mud summer here with temp maxing out at30_32 degrees Celsius at daytime and very few days at 35-36max. Night temp is around 20. Guess I'll allow some sun and place in shade as u advise in afternoon. I can water as much as needed, problem is the pumice clay mix doesn't hold.much water I feel abd I hesitated to add a bit of soil or pine bark to retain more moisture.

 

[Shibui]

By trying a higher trunk do u mean working with existing branches or still chopping trunk up high and regrowing the branches?

I can't see the existing branches, just pictures of trunks and roots and also nothing for scale except a hand in one pic so it is really difficult to make an informed decision about how high would be appropriate for branches. Different people also have different tastes in bonsai so there's no correct answer. You mentioned that you thought it was too tall so I assume you have some preference and can make the decision.
Generally branching that starts around 1/3 of the full height looks good so work out how tall you'd like the tree to be eventually and make decisions. You have already seen some goof bonsai so you know the 1/3 guideline is quite flexible and some great trees have lower branches and some have branches that start higher and still look good.
Just focus on the lower trunk and try to imagine what tree would look good on that. Then see if you have anything on the tree that would help make the tree you imagine. Cut off surplus parts and build the tree.
If it turns out there's no parts of your desired tree in the tree you have could it be shaped differently using parts of the tree that already exist. Cut off anything that is not needed and work toward the new shape.
if it turns out you can't make the first desired tree and there are no parts that can be used to make a different bonsai you still have 2 options - cut everything off and hope new hoots grow and make something useful or get rid of that tree and start again with something better.

 

[maroun.c]

Sorry about the missing ics and dimensions.
Trunk is around 30 cm or 12 inch from where it emerges from the thick base to its top. Keeping up.with the 1/3 rule or a bit close to that this would male a very tall tree for the trunk size?
The more I look at the trunk the more I want to keep it as it's got some nice movement

Branches emerge from 3 points as can be seen in this pic from right side:
Upper one is 3 branches emerging from the fro t so this needs to go. The middle and lower one go to the left and back side but point too much up and are too straight. I'm more in favour of chopping very close to the lowest branch ie on red mark.

 

[BrianBay9]

If you chop at the red line you will almost certainly get lots of new buds sprouting along the remaining trunk. Lots to choose from. If nothing stands out you can always chop lower later. You have another taperless cylinder of a trunk. Perhaps you could do some carving to establish a bit of taper?

 

[maroun.c]

Any examples videos or pics of how to carve a tubular trunk to get a bit of taper?

 

[leatherback]

I would chop the tall trunk off. All will scale much better. This trunk will not easily become a nicely tapered trunk at that height.
But then.. I have become a chopper.

 

[BrianBay9]

Any examples videos or pics of how to carve a tubular trunk to get a bit of taper?

I don't have anything right now, but consider a tree where the top has broken and peeled partially down one side as it fell. I'll look for a pic. Edit - maybe something like this?

 

[maroun.c]

I don't have anything right now, but consider a tree where the top has broken and peeled partially down one side as it fell. I'll look for a pic. Edit - maybe something like this?

View attachment 252628

Wow that's a stunning tree. Thanks for sharing

 

[maroun.c]

One last concern I have is looking at the leaves of the shoots emerging.from.the base they are very short whereas ones on branches are way too big. Believe this is a graft over that base as texture is also different. Do u think leave size will decrease when tree is in a small bonsai pot in the future?

 

[maroun.c]

I would chop the tall trunk off. All will scale much better. This trunk will not easily become a nicely tapered trunk at that height.
But then.. I have become a chopper.

Unfortunately struggling to find any better taper trees in nurseries so far. All my other olives are struggling with bad reverse taper I'm trying to fix or workaround.
Agree with ur comment for sure. Trunk does have a twist where it emerges and going up.2-3 inches there is definitely good taper but then as u say it continues in a tubular taperless shape.
I do want to keep a trunk if I cnlan kn this tree as all my other olives have been chopped to the base.
Believe i will proceed with a trunk chop up high and maybe try to carve the trunk or have some deadwood in it to improve taper. At same time I'll just develop a new trunk from the base so if the current trunk doesn't end up looking good I'll just chop this trunk off.

 

[leatherback]

Believe this is a graft over that base as texture is also different. Do u think leave size will decrease when tree is in a small bonsai pot in the future?

not enough to match those from the base. indeed a graft if a diff species

 

[BrianBay9]

Leaf size will decrease over time in bonsai culture. I wouldn't worry about that yet.

 

[Cristian D.]

One last concern I have is looking at the leaves of the shoots emerging.from.the base they are very short whereas ones on branches are way too big. Believe this is a graft over that base as texture is also different. Do u think leave size will decrease when tree is in a small bonsai pot in the future?

The leaves on the shots emerging from the base look like olea europea sylvestris, the wild olive. The top is regular olive. It may be a graft, but can't tell from the picture. Sometimes neglected olives can have wild shots at the base or the low branches can be very similar with the wild olive, called acebuche here. I have seen that on abandoned olives, growing wild on the field. The difference is not only on the leaf size and shape, but also the internodes are shorter on the wild olive, the branches are very straight and the ramification looks different.
It may be very difficult to reduce the leaves sizes, that's what I heard. Fortunatelly all my olives are wild, so I didn't had to check this.

It is a good looking tree, good luck with it!

 

[maroun.c]

Here's a better shot if the leaves. They do look different and I dont think this is an old vs new leave look as the first leaves in the lower branches are relatively older and are still much smaller and different than ones on the branches

 

[leatherback]

Leaf size will decrease over time in bonsai culture. I wouldn't worry about that yet.

Not to the extend to be the same as the rootstock.

Choose rootstock or graft to work with, not both. The rootstock is better for bonsai, imho

 

[Cristian D.]

Maroun, as leatherback says, the rootstock is a lot better for bonsai. But please don't chop the trunk yet.
There may be a solution.
Now is to late here and I post from my phone, which I hate.
I'll try to explain tomorrow.

 

[maroun.c]

apologies for the timing of my posts as I'm in a different timezone!
Will definitely not rush my decision as this is one of the nicest bases I could find for a pre-bonsai and I truly believe it has potential so want to make sure I go with the best choice for it.

 

[Cristian D.]

Maroun, if you decide to use the suckers from the base they have much better potential, but they are too thin and it will take forever to obtain a nice trunk from them. There is a shortcut, but the explanation won't be very short, so be prepared
Since this is your 5th olive, I assume you like olive trees and you want to have a bonsai resembling an olive, right? Somewhere you received the advice to look on google images for ancient olives. You can also search for "olivo milenario" or "olivo centenario", that would also bring images with olives that are hundreds or thousands of years old. But, if you search for olive bonsai, you'll see that they don't have anything in common with the real trees.
So, first you have to decide what you really want, what is your final goal. Do you want a something that looks like a juniper styled to resemble a pine, or do you want something resembling an ancient olive?
You really have to look at pictures and think about it, all the work you have to do will be different according to the decision you make.
When you are ready, we can continue the discussion here or on your other thread where you ask for help about styling your olives.

Cheers,
Cristian