One Infraction Per Season?

[dbonsaiw]

So now I need to ask - can I air layer the whole tree in a season if I do nothing else?

 

[AcerAddict]

I don't think you've been reading things correctly. There are many posts about doing just what I've said...It's common practice to do both when reducing trunks, collecting trees, etc. It's been done for a very long time.

If I haven't been reading correctly, why does nearly everyone here parrot the "one major trauma at a time" saying?

I completely comprehend your example regarding tree collection. However, when collecting a tree and doing such a massive root chopping, isn't it HIGHLY desirable to leave as much foliage on the tree as possible? Then, the "rule" is to leave the tree alone and do nothing to it for an entire year in order to let it recover from the collecting process. Does the same guideline hold true for material that was nursery-sourced?

I'm honestly not trying to play Devil's advocate here. I genuinely want to follow best practices, but when 10 different sources are asked the same question, and 2, 3 or even more different responses are given, it makes things difficult. I also do not want to be someone giving out false advice on a topic.

 

[AcerAddict]

So now I need to ask - can I air layer the whole tree in a season if I do nothing else?

Define what you mean by the "whole tree." Do you mean air layer the upper part of the tree off the root stock, or do you mean air layer many branches on the tree at once?

 

[leatherback]

This contradicts much of what I've read in this forum since joining earlier this year. I don't openly doubt anything anyone says, but cutting roots as well as branches at the same time has been explained as being a "no-no" to me before. Conflicting opinions are always going to exist, but what's the right call? Is a root reduction and branch chopping OK being done together or isn't it?

phase, species, location.

You need to know the phase a tree is in (including health) the species you are talking about and the location/climate. That defines what can be done!

 

[dbonsaiw]

Loose language - my bad. I would air layer off as many nice branches as I could. I would be leaving the trunk(s) as well as some foliage growing parts of the branches being air layered.

 

[AcerAddict]

phase, species, location.

You need to know the phase a tree is in (including health) the species you are talking about and the location/climate. That defines what can be done!

This is the maple sub-forum, so I was just asking specifically about those. Yeah, I know there's many factors involved. Too hard to set just one procedure as being the end-all, be-all.

From the sounds of it, I guess I need to be asking more questions before answering them myself. Too many variables in every single situation to give solid advice without knowing the values of x, y, and z first.

 

[leatherback]

Loose language - my bad. I would air layer off as many nice branches as I could. I would be leaving the trunk(s) as well as some foliage growing parts of the branches being air layered.

As long as the tree is well established that should be fine. Do not start layering when you also do big repots, just to be sure.

 

[63pmp]

If I haven't been reading correctly, why does nearly everyone here parrot the "one major trauma at a time" saying?

I completely comprehend your example regarding tree collection. However, when collecting a tree and doing such a massive root chopping, isn't it HIGHLY desirable to leave as much foliage on the tree as possible? Then, the "rule" is to leave the tree alone and do nothing to it for an entire year in order to let it recover from the collecting process. Does the same guideline hold true for material that was nursery-sourced?

I'm honestly not trying to play Devil's advocate here. I genuinely want to follow best practices, but when 10 different sources are asked the same question, and 2, 3 or even more different responses are given, it makes things difficult. I also do not want to be someone giving out false advice on a topic.

I hesitate to use the term "rule" because one can apply different approaches that contradict to the same species. Also diciduous trees have varying capacity to tolerate stresses. I treat regular JM much harder than a shishigashira. Trident maples tolerate much more stress than a regular JM.

You need to assess the vigor of each tree and judge what you can do at that stage. A tree that is not vigorous that you want to layer won't layer well, so perhaps repot and then layer later. Repotting improves a maples vigor.

Sometimes (with a young tree) when developing nebari a lot of root has to be removed, I will balance this with heavy top pruning. Don't do much wiring or pruning till summer, but maybe not at all until the following year. What you can do depends on the trees vigor.

Root pruning removes a trees ability to take up water and nutrients. Leaving a lot of buds may mean the roots cannot supply the demand all these buds require. This can reduce your plans for further development till the tree recovers, or worse, cause die back in branches.

I don't believe there are rules, only guidelines.

 

[Shibui]

If I haven't been reading correctly, why does nearly everyone here parrot the "one major trauma at a time" saying?

'Everyone' on any forum consists of a very few experienced people, a large number of inexperienced instant experts, lots of people just parroting what they have recently read and a number of people with a little more experience but who have been too afraid to go outside the guidelines that have been told. As a reader you have very little way of working out who really knows and who is just repeating something without any real concrete experience.
When I do ask for details it often turns out the advice is based on a single bad experience so not really rigorous testing of the theory. Just because something has not worked once does not mean it can never work. Often a minor cahnge to conditions or technique will make a big difference so generalizations are difficult.
Many of the theories I see appear to be based on unsound conclusions.

I completely comprehend your example regarding tree collection. However, when collecting a tree and doing such a massive root chopping, isn't it HIGHLY desirable to leave as much foliage on the tree as possible? Then, the "rule" is to leave the tree alone and do nothing to it for an entire year in order to let it recover from the collecting process. Does the same guideline hold true for material that was nursery-sourced?

Leaving lots of foliage appears to have originated in collecting conifers and has somehow transferred to deciduous. I transplant a lot of trees over many years so I feel I do have some practical experience. Most from grow beds to pots so very favorable conditions but also quite a lot of collections from garden plants and feral origins on roadsides and farmland.
From what I have seen junipers and pines definitely survive better if plenty of growing tips are retained at transplant. They also take much longer to re-establish roots so I never count success until mid summer at least. If the tree was not healthy to start with or transplant and subsequent care was less than ideal recovery can take even longer. This may be where even experienced growers may advise waiting longer - we have no way of knowing how good the transplant technique was or what sort of subsequent care it is getting so better to err on the side of caution.
Even among deciduous trees there will be differences between species. Tridents are one of the strongest and I routinely dig, hard root prune and chop the tops very hard and expect 100% survival and strong regrowth. I have even started trimming the new shoots on last winter's transplants after just a month of growth this spring. If you are getting really good regrowth it is usually safe to start more work but the earlier you do so the slower real recovery can be. An experienced grower should be able to spot small signs that things are not going well and change tactics where a newer grower may not.

Nursery stock has generally been grown under ideal conditions so should be vigorous and healthy enough to cope with more than a weaker tree so it is often possible to condense the recovery operations. Just remember that not all nursery stock will come from ideal conditions. Some backyarders have much less knowledge or may be selling trees because they are not performing as well as expected.

As far as layering it is definitely possible to start a number of layers at a time. We've found that results are best when each layer has plenty of foliage to feed the developing roots. The healthier and more vigorous the tree the quicker and better layering will be.

 

[penumbra]

Trident maples tolerate much more stress than a regular JM.

Is this what you meant to say?

 

[badatusernames]

Not really. THis all boils down to what you're asking the tree to do. Air layering depends on the underlying strength of the tree. I'd question why you'd want to air layer and root prune at the same time. Yeah, it could probably be done, but probably not a great thing to do at the same time.

that makes sense, basically I have a JM that is tight in its pot and didn’t want to wait til 2023 to air layer, but if that’s the right way, that’s the right way.

That's horseshit. I was advised (and have done it myself) that root pruning drastically reduces the "bleeding" on hard upper pruning done along with the root prune. BTW, sap is not blood and trees can't "bleed to death."

Good to know! I’ve just heard it referred to as “bleeding”. I was advised - and I thought I’d seen this online too - that you want to prune before root work rather than after, but I honestly don’t actually know from experience. I could absolutely be wrong, or maybe it’s species specific (perhaps ficus?)

 

[TomB]

This contradicts much of what I've read in this forum since joining earlier this year. I don't openly doubt anything anyone says, but cutting roots as well as branches at the same time has been explained as being a "no-no" to me before. Conflicting opinions are always going to exist, but what's the right call? Is a root reduction and branch chopping OK being done together or isn't it?

A lot of bad advice and hearsay gets bandied about on here unfortunately.
Believe what rockm is saying, he knows what he's talking about.
OP, people misuse the word 'season'. It means 'year' (as in full growing season), not spring, summer etc. It would be less confusing if people just said 'year'.

 

[ShadyStump]

Leaving lots of foliage appears to have originated in collecting conifers and has somehow transferred to deciduous. I transplant a lot of trees over many years so I feel I do have some practical experience. Most from grow beds to pots so very favorable conditions but also quite a lot of collections from garden plants and feral origins on roadsides and farmland.
From what I have seen junipers and pines definitely survive better if plenty of growing tips are retained at transplant. They also take much longer to re-establish roots so I never count success until mid summer at least. If the tree was not healthy to start with or transplant and subsequent care was less than ideal recovery can take even longer. This may be where even experienced growers may advise waiting longer - we have no way of knowing how good the transplant technique was or what sort of subsequent care it is getting so better to err on the side of caution.

This was my understanding as well. Conifers lose less moisture from their foliage, and the foliage helps build roots, so keep the foliage. Deciduous lose ALLOT of moisture through their foliage, faster than the roots will catch up, so get rid of some.

But then again...

inexperienced instant experts

That guy half the time.
At least I try to be open about my penchant for accidental arborcide.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I can wait till spring to repot and root prune, but can I still prune the branches/trunk chop and/or air layer

Online videos often very deceiving. After repot roots need time to re establish before trauma of wrestling/manhandling upper tree while chopping/wiring. Some may say one rowing season IF growing very well. Some may say wait one year. Happy roots Happy tree. Unhappy roots Dead tree.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The "one insult per year" or "one stressor per season" is crap us old timers make up for over enthusiastic newbies who want to work their trees to death.

Most newbies kill a few trees by doing too much too soon. Take a little time to observe how your trees grow and respond in your climate. Let a tree sit on your bench a year or two just growing before you dive in with radical pruning and sawing off roots. Learn when your trees grow in your yard.

But once you have experience you realize you can get away with a great deal of work if your timing is right.

@rockm is absolutely correct. For deciduous trees, all at once, root pruning & branch pruning is often done together and is far better than staggering treatments. And as he also suggests, working conifers is far different than working deciduous. Conifers indeed are one treatment, then leave them alone a year or two.

So if you are not sure - slow down. Get a little more experience understanding your tree's response to pruning or root disturbance. Or listen to RockM. he always says it like it is.

 

[Wulfskaar]

With so few rules being "hard rules", newbs like me have no choice but to parrot these general rules, like "one insult per year".

Every time someone makes a hard statement, it seems, there are people ready to jump all over it with opposing viewpoints.

So... there's no choice but to follow soft guidelines and adjust as needed.

I think the point of saying "one insult per year" is to keep inexperienced people from collecting, chopping, wiring, pruning, and air layering all at the same time. Inexperience breeds impatience and we want to make a bonsai quickly!

 

[penumbra]

Most newbies kill a few trees by doing too much too soon.

I'd venture to say "all" instead of "most".
We have all done this, some 40 years ago, and some yesterday.

 

[rockm]

With so few rules being "hard rules", newbs like me have no choice but to parrot these general rules, like "one insult per year".

Every time someone makes a hard statement, it seems, there are people ready to jump all over it with opposing viewpoints.

So... there's no choice but to follow soft guidelines and adjust as needed.

I think the point of saying "one insult per year" is to keep inexperienced people from collecting, chopping, wiring, pruning, and air layering all at the same time. Inexperience breeds impatience and we want to make a bonsai quickly!

The "one insult per year" has always been associated with pines. I've heard it for decades from "pine people." Sometimes, this stuff is picked up by others who don't have any context or much experience and assume it applies it to everything.

As for the jumping all over with "opposing viewpoints," that is pretty standard for just about anything posted on the web. It's a given. The way around that kind of stuff is to ask to see the evidence--in this case, look at the advice giver's trees. I've run into this constantly here. I had one person who argued with me over a statement that I made about Louisiana-collected bald cypress being more winter hardy here in Va. than Florida-collected BC. I had overwintered both kinds side by side. I saw it...the person took my statement as some kind of insult to Florida...

 

[AcerAddict]

I hesitate to use the term "rule" because one can apply different approaches that contradict to the same species.

I don't believe there are rules, only guidelines.

I put "rule" in quotes because it was sarcasm.

 

[MrWunderful]

Try them both and figure out what works.

Research online is a great thing, but at some point going out and doing it (especially when seeing conflicting answers) will decide what works best for you.

Im a root chop/top hack butcher on vigorous deciduous maples, elms, etc. btw