Opinions on this Japanese black pine.

[Phillthy]

I stumbled upon this Japanese black pine at a nursery today. I saw the bark and how thick the trunk was and I instantly fell in love with it. I know I want to chop it down because it is to tall. I have an idea of where I would chop it but I want to hear out other opinions.

 

[Phillthy]

I was thinking of chopping it here

 

[Adair M]

Before you chop it, you might want to consider putting in some movement, and you can use the upper part as leverage.

 

[Phillthy]

Before you chop it, you might want to consider putting in some movement, and you can use the upper part as leverage.

I will keep that in mind. Is it safe to take off all that foliage at once? Or should I take off little by little until I reach my desired height. And when is the best time to do this?

 

[Adair M]

Late fall is the best time for heavy bending.

Yes, you could chop that much at once.

 

[sorce]

Philthburger....

That chop seems a waste...
That second whorl is good for shit.

I would cut all the branches off that second whorl. RED.
To allow light to the bottom whorl. NOW!

And let it be.

Should allow you at least 2 years to think about this...

I'm seeing optimal as yellow being a new lead...
And blue being your first branch...

But blue is weak. So let it go next year to see if it will stay valid.
If it does...you can lop purple if it is not a better lead.

Than wait to chop the whole top at Green at your leisure.
3-x years ish.

If that weak blue branch kicks it.

Second most optimal seems Yellow as your first branch and purple as your new lead.
Looking again that may be best straight away.

Basically....the smaller you start with at the bottom ....
The more control you have.
Younger branches will still backbuds close...and you can keep it managed.

The trade off is health.
The thicker options will provide more energy and allow you to cut the whole top off sooner.
But you are limited in how much you can move them, and keep nodes close to the trunk.

Either way...
I don't think that bottom whorl is going to grow out of usable for at least three years.

So you got mad time.
But I would open it up and consider that your tree.

That's how the Heavy hitters do it.
I'm just a parrot...who hates crackers!

Sorce

 

[BeebsBonsai]

I like @sorce 's option, however, I would take it a step further. I would air layer that second whorl. Instead of trunk chopping straight away, air layer the second whorl and now when you cut it off, you have two meaty trees. I can't really tell what is above that second whorl from the photos, but I assume it will help greatly in getting an air-layer to take. Just be sure to mitigate the reverse taper of the second whorl when you cut for your air-layer. I would also take off any pieces of primary ramification above the first whorl that impeded it's ability to photosynthesize.

Look at it this way, there is literally no down side to air layering at this moment. If you were going to cut off the whole top, then the air layer simply allows you to attempt to get two trees out of one. If it takes, that's great. If not, you just perform your trunk chop as if the air layer was never attempted. You sacrifice a year, but your patience could yield double the payout.

This has an added benefit of easing the trunk chop. It is sort of a two-step approach that will ultimately give the portion you want an easier transition into bonsai material. @sorce, do you agree that this is an ideal candidate for an air layer at the second whorl?

 

[sorce]

at the second whorl?

Without that foot long next next node....

We'd be back to a tree like the bottom here...
Only with less bark, reverse taper...
And many more years...

I think Phillthy could find another primo one before needing that one.

Also...
In this case where every year that top is intact will beef and bark this already nice trunk....

Would I start something on the tippy top of this in a better position that would still allow much top to feed the bottom?

Hell yeah!

Sorce

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Without that foot long next next node....

We'd be back to a tree like the bottom here...
Only with less bark, reverse taper...
And many more years...

I think Phillthy could find another primo one before needing that one.

Also...
In this case where every year that top is intact will beef and bark this already nice trunk....

Would I start something on the tippy top of this in a better position that would still allow much top to feed the bottom?

Hell yeah!

Sorce

Ahh, yes. I didnt see the photo that showed that foot long internode. I still think thats valuable tho, if he were to train one of the branches as the new leader. He would have a nice meaty base to start with. I mean theoretically he could have two air layers as well. Assuming there are beanches between the two to feed the lower one. Just seemed like a giant waste to get rid of all that tree when theres potential there.

 

[Giga]

Before you chop it, you might want to consider putting in some movement, and you can use the upper part as leverage.

I like this idea, and if you can put some movement into it you could have a nice tree. Grafting is going to be needed, and I chopped a large black pine like this in late winter with no issues. Based on the 2d imaged I think this might be a good option, take with a grain of salt as in person will always be better to see whats going on.

 

[Phillthy]

So many options I love it! @sorce @BeebsBonsai

 

[M. Frary]

air layer the second whorl

You layer many pines successfully?

 

[Phillthy]

I like this idea, and if you can put some movement into it you could have a nice tree. Grafting is going to be needed, and I chopped a large black pine like this in late winter with no issues. Based on the 2d imaged I think this might be a good option, take with a grain of salt as in person will always be better to see whats going on.
View attachment 156793

I'm more attached to this idea. As for the movement, the trunk is pretty thick and it's gona be hard to bend such a thick base. I agree that adding movement will make it look 20x better. How do I go about adding slight movement without snapping the trunk? I've done relief cuts on some of my other trees to make bending easier. Will this work on pines? Here are my two options. Either continue the slight curve and make a "C" shape or bend it the other way and make somewhat of a "S" curve.

 

[sorce]

You can put all the movement you want in this trunk...

It's not gonna hide the fact that your next two segments have no taper.

Build the movement.
Grow the taper.

You are twenty three...
And based on the other trees...
You got a good eye.

You have plenty of time to grow out your next parts.

Don't sell yourself short like you are an old fart who likes to "enjoy them for what they are".
Fuck that bro.

That's not a Vespa in your avatar.
No offense Bobbylane!

Don't settle for a Vespa tree.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I'm more attached to this idea. As for the movement, the trunk is pretty thick and it's gona be hard to bend such a thick base. I agree that adding movement will make it look 20x better. How do I go about adding slight movement without snapping the trunk? I've done relief cuts on some of my other trees to make bending easier. Will this work on pines? Here are my two options. Either continue the slight curve and make a "C" shape or bend it the other way and make somewhat of a "S" curve.

See if you can find Peter Tea's blog from when he was in Japan. Using a jack, rebar, blocks of wood for spacers, they put all kinds of bends in JBP. Wrapping in raffia helps.

Granted, this would be pretty intimidating to try by yourself for the first time. But this would be a great workshop tree with someone like Peter Tea or Juan Andrade.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@BeebsBonsai
In my experience, JBP can take 2 or more years to get roots when air layering. And my success rate was only 50% for 12 tries. How quickly did you get roots and how often did you try. Air layer is not a reliable method, especially for older than 3 year old wood. My success with older wood air layers has been zero out of 3 tries.

 

[MichaelS]

I would cut like this. You don't even want to think about bonsai at this stage. Cut here or similar and concentrate on getting the roots right at the next repot. Sometimes the root ball will need to be reduced by 75% to do that right. It then goes into a SMALL pot just big enough to leave about 1 inch of room for the roots to grow. After another 2 years you will be ready to consider shaping a bit more and another repot. In the meantime just cut off branches which grow too long. A shape will reveal itself later...
In other words start at the start not the middle!








Possible future lines...

 

[Potawatomi13]

Boring tree. Wait for interesting one. Nursery needs this more than you.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

@BeebsBonsai
In my experience, JBP can take 2 or more years to get roots when air layering. And my success rate was only 50% for 12 tries. How quickly did you get roots and how often did you try. Air layer is not a reliable method, especially for older than 3 year old wood. My success with older wood air layers has been zero out of 3 tries.

Leo, thanks for stepping in and giving more practical advice. I have not air layered. I have seen it done and watched numerous videos, but have never done it myself. I just thought it looked like a good opportunity to. I don't have anything nearly good enough to do this procedure on. I guess I was wrong for offering it as an option.Even if it didn't take, it wouldn't hurt him to try though. He was just going to cut it off anyway.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Leo, thanks for stepping in and giving more practical advice. I have not air layered. I have seen it done and watched numerous videos, but have never done it myself. I just thought it looked like a good opportunity to. I don't have anything nearly good enough to do this procedure on. I guess I was wrong for offering it as an option.Even if it didn't take, it wouldn't hurt him to try though. He was just going to cut it off anyway.

Nothing wrong with attempting to air layer JBP. In California, with the heat they have, sometimes JBP will root the first summer. It is an important tool for propagating rare clones that you don't want a graft scar to show on. BUT because it takes time, and is not a 100% successful technique, it should be reserved for ''propagation stock'', or a tree that otherwise would never be ''showable'' unless it was air layered off its problem trunk. Because of the time air layer takes in pines, it is only used for ''rare cultivars'', seldom used to propagate seed grown normal forms of the species. JBP are available enough that it is easier to buy another seedling than go through the work of air layering.

Species other than pines often have quick response to air layering and will run better than 75% success rate. For example, trident maples and willows and Ficus will all air layer relatively easily and reliably. Here air layering is often used to rescue part of a tree off unacceptable lower trunk.