BonsaiSniper
Mame
I personally like it, it does degrade after a while though...
Opinions on Turface
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cbroad
Omono
Has it really broken down or are you seeing the fines accumulate? The stuff I have is pretty high fired, but I don't really have a hard freeze-thaw compared to you probably.
I still use some in my growing out stuff, I've mostly switched to 50/50 perlite and potting soil. I don't have turface as a main component in anything though.
cbroad
Omono
I think turface's biggest issue is its small size and shape. If you could find a size bigger than their MVP and where more than half a bag isn't wasted, it could be really good.
It's shape is somewhat flat and plate like, it's going to settle with all the pieces stacked on top of each other, like a wall. That means poor air filled porosity, and possibly an inferior root system.
It's shape is somewhat flat and plate like, it's going to settle with all the pieces stacked on top of each other, like a wall. That means poor air filled porosity, and possibly an inferior root system.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I grow in nothing but MVP, in pots ranging from 1 inch-ish to 19 inches and generally less than 3 inches deep - about 200 individual plants of 50 plus species and close to 100 different varieties. Even though my collection has diversified over time, I've been using it for about a decade now. I would like a larger average grain size for a few species, junipers in shallow pots (under 2 inches deep) in particular. On the other hand, I think it is fabulous for acers of all ilks, producing great root ramification, but some now disdain 'cotton candy' roots.
As I already said, it has been close to a decade now, straight out of the bag, no sifting. I use Osmocote-plus fert or sometimes an ordinary balanced chem fert. I never put shit in it as 'organic fertilizer' is what leads to the infamous 'turfcrete'. If you are devoted to organic ferts, you should either put it in teabags or not use Turface at all.
It does not break down. It does not compact. It is denser than water, so I clean and reuse mine --> throw it in a bucket of water, skim off prills, dead roots, and other organic bits that float, drain, rinse and repeat until the water is clear before reuse. I'm still using the contents of the first bag I bought (need I say it again?) for about a decade ago now.
See markyscott's Introductory Soil Physics thread to compare hydraulic/aerobic properties to other substrates and the Introductory Soil Reference Sheet Resource for a cost comparison.
As I already said, it has been close to a decade now, straight out of the bag, no sifting. I use Osmocote-plus fert or sometimes an ordinary balanced chem fert. I never put shit in it as 'organic fertilizer' is what leads to the infamous 'turfcrete'. If you are devoted to organic ferts, you should either put it in teabags or not use Turface at all.
It does not break down. It does not compact. It is denser than water, so I clean and reuse mine --> throw it in a bucket of water, skim off prills, dead roots, and other organic bits that float, drain, rinse and repeat until the water is clear before reuse. I'm still using the contents of the first bag I bought (need I say it again?) for about a decade ago now.
See markyscott's Introductory Soil Physics thread to compare hydraulic/aerobic properties to other substrates and the Introductory Soil Reference Sheet Resource for a cost comparison.
Captain.Bonsai
Mame
Bonsai Jack Monto Clay solves this problem. It’s from the same source as turface, different shape, larger size, more expensive.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I have been using turface for over 20 years. For the first 15 years, it was my go to clay component in my soil mix, adding various amounts of lava and pumice depending on species. It was what was available and what I could afford, and it worked well in my eyes. It definitely holds a lot of water, and it's shape promotes compaction, particularly in the lower part of the pot. Over the last 5 years or so, I've moved all my older and more refined trees into an akadama based mix. I still use/re-use turface in my grow out mix, mixing it 1:1 with soil conditioner, and the containers used are usually large, deep wooden grow boxes or nursery cans.
There is a calcined clay product similar to turface but larger particles called Mule Mix, https://www.domyown.com/southern-athletic-field-mule-mix-816-conditioner-p-9628.html
I've found it difficult to source but would bet it would be a better size for soil mixes as compared to turface.
There is a calcined clay product similar to turface but larger particles called Mule Mix, https://www.domyown.com/southern-athletic-field-mule-mix-816-conditioner-p-9628.html
I've found it difficult to source but would bet it would be a better size for soil mixes as compared to turface.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I've used Turface for over 20 years too, closer to 35+ years. I have gone from loving it, to hating it to loving it again.
So use it if it is convenient and cost of better media is an issue.
I hate it as "sole component" mix. To my mind, in my experience, it should be less than 50% of what is in the mix.
In mixes it is great stuff, adds water retention. Light weight for big grow out containers and cheap enough for "sticks in pots".
These days, last 10 years I use it as a component in mixes, usually with pumice, DE, fir bark or pine bark. I never use it alone. All my mixes are at least 3 components.
I ran into trouble using it as a sole component. That was the least satisfactory period of my experience with Turface.
I know some use it as sole component, 100% Turface, their experience is not my experience. Just reporting my results.
So use it if it is convenient and cost of better media is an issue.
I hate it as "sole component" mix. To my mind, in my experience, it should be less than 50% of what is in the mix.
In mixes it is great stuff, adds water retention. Light weight for big grow out containers and cheap enough for "sticks in pots".
These days, last 10 years I use it as a component in mixes, usually with pumice, DE, fir bark or pine bark. I never use it alone. All my mixes are at least 3 components.
I ran into trouble using it as a sole component. That was the least satisfactory period of my experience with Turface.
I know some use it as sole component, 100% Turface, their experience is not my experience. Just reporting my results.
BonsaiSniper
Mame
Has it really broken down or are you seeing the fines accumulate? The stuff I have is pretty high fired, but I don't really have a hard freeze-thaw compared to you probably.
I still use some in my growing out stuff, I've mostly switched to 50/50 perlite and potting soil. I don't have turface as a main component in anything though.
Perlite is not my favorite for soil because it floats in water... I usually dip my bonsai in a bucket and the perlite just floats to the top.
Tieball
Masterpiece
I still use Turface quite frequently. I find good uses for it. I also use several other substrate combinations too.
I have been using turface and montmorillonite clay (both being calcined clay/lightweight expanded clay aggregate) as 1/3rd to 1/2 of my soil mix for a long time now. It does it's job as a water retentive soil component that still promotes excellent drainage and will not break down. I prefer turface to Montmorillonite clay because monmorillonite although larger in comparison to turface, is usually uniform flat particles.
When people don't sift turface to get rid of particles under 1/8th inch , they keep all the sizes ranging from dust to below 1/8 inch (this unfortunately happens to be a huge portion of the bag). These small particles promote a perched water table, which will deprive roots of oxygen and cause root rot. How long this takes has a lot of variables (pot type/watering schedule/tree species vitality and vigour etc.) but it will happen.
Another problem some people have with turface could be that they are not buying the right brand. You should only buy turface MVP or turface all sport. All other turface products are either too small to be useful (heritage red) or not baked hard enough to be fully calcined, these will break down quickly.
If you over fertilize you will quickly clog the valuable pores within the microstructure of turface with mineral salts. Hard tap water also causes mineral buildup at a slower rate. This can cause many other problems, so if you choose to over fertilize it's a good idea to flush the soil regularly with reverse osmosis, distilled, or rain water to dilute the mineral build up and free up the structure of pores.
After sifting to remove particles smaller than 1/8 inch and before using it in your bonsai soil mix it is a good idea to wash it well ,soaking and rinsing several times, with ro/distilled/rain water to remove unwanted mineral buildup and waste that could be present after manufacturing. This step isn't absolutely necessary but helps you get a good start and we should be hydrating our soil components anyway.
My $.02
When people don't sift turface to get rid of particles under 1/8th inch , they keep all the sizes ranging from dust to below 1/8 inch (this unfortunately happens to be a huge portion of the bag). These small particles promote a perched water table, which will deprive roots of oxygen and cause root rot. How long this takes has a lot of variables (pot type/watering schedule/tree species vitality and vigour etc.) but it will happen.
Another problem some people have with turface could be that they are not buying the right brand. You should only buy turface MVP or turface all sport. All other turface products are either too small to be useful (heritage red) or not baked hard enough to be fully calcined, these will break down quickly.
If you over fertilize you will quickly clog the valuable pores within the microstructure of turface with mineral salts. Hard tap water also causes mineral buildup at a slower rate. This can cause many other problems, so if you choose to over fertilize it's a good idea to flush the soil regularly with reverse osmosis, distilled, or rain water to dilute the mineral build up and free up the structure of pores.
After sifting to remove particles smaller than 1/8 inch and before using it in your bonsai soil mix it is a good idea to wash it well ,soaking and rinsing several times, with ro/distilled/rain water to remove unwanted mineral buildup and waste that could be present after manufacturing. This step isn't absolutely necessary but helps you get a good start and we should be hydrating our soil components anyway.
My $.02
The article in this url below explains a lot about the physical properties of commonly used inorganic components. Even though it is from a website pertaining to orchids I found it to be very informative on the micro structure and internal porosity of turface (lightweight expanded clay aggregate), diatomaceous earth, pumice, and scoria.
firstrays.com
Mineral Buildup in Inorganic Media › First Rays LLC
Mineral buildup in inorganic media can be reduced by following a few recommended cultural techniques
firstrays.com
GrampaMoses
Sapling
I used turface MVP for years, sifting and throwing away anything smaller than 3mm. I would throw away half of each bag. Not very cost effective. If I tried sifting 2mm and larger, I would get bubbles coming to the surface every time I watered, leading me to believe there were dry pockets in the soil, not a good thing.
3 years ago I switched from my turface/pine bark/granite mix to a napa8822/pumice/lava rock mix. I notice my trees require less frequent watering. They are much less likely to have wilting leaves in the summer.
Then this year I got some akadama and I'm trying the classic APL mix, we'll see if I prefer it to the napa mix at the end of this year.
3 years ago I switched from my turface/pine bark/granite mix to a napa8822/pumice/lava rock mix. I notice my trees require less frequent watering. They are much less likely to have wilting leaves in the summer.
Then this year I got some akadama and I'm trying the classic APL mix, we'll see if I prefer it to the napa mix at the end of this year.
Rid
Shohin
thats a great website to to buy kelp extract.The article in this url below explains a lot about the physical properties of commonly used inorganic components. Even though it is from a website pertaining to orchids I found it to be very informative on the micro structure and internal porosity of turface (lightweight expanded clay aggregate), diatomaceous earth, pumice, and scoria.
Mineral Buildup in Inorganic Media › First Rays LLC
Mineral buildup in inorganic media can be reduced by following a few recommended cultural techniques
Ridley
Oliver Muscio
Mame
I have been using Mule Mix for a number of years now (I have a local source here in Western Kentucky.) I can't compare its properties, particle size, etc. to Turface, since I have not used the latter, but if Turface particles are flat, I can say that is not the case with Mule Mix. I do sieve and wash it to remove dust-like and other finer particles, but otherwise use it as is. As others have said for Turface, I also thoroughly wash used Mule Mix and reuse it with no ill effects. There is little break-down, and it does not need any sieving, only good clean-up the second time around.
canoeguide
Chumono
I'm using exactly this (with from 0-25% fir bark), and I would love to hear your thoughts vs APL! My guess is that it would perform about the same.
greenman63
Yamadori
I've used a product called Hydrorock with great success. I also use pebble-sized red or black lava rock, usually average about 5-7 mm in size. For my cacti and succulents I'll also add a quantity of quarterchip gravel, and there's always some use for vermiculite. I find I can use these amendments along with some bark {depending on how much organic matter I want to use), mix in some worm castings or bone meal as the case may be. I've been able to use most of these as parts of my bonsai mix and potting soils over the years with excellent success.
I despise perlite.
I despise perlite.
!S
I use the same mix you used to use in different variations for different trees, I use diatomaceous earth sometimes because it does hold more water than turface. I like the control I get with the standard sifted mix of turface/fir bark/granite 1:1:1 and then amending it by adding more turface/granite 2:1:2 for conifers and adding turface 2:1:1 or replacing it with DE 1:1:1 for some deciduous trees. For developing trees I will add back in some of the turface fines to increase water retention. I also use turface and fir bark fines for seedling mixes.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
Yup 1/4" "Turface" that's what I use in place of akadama in my mix.
in the 3.5g size it's ~$10/g, clean no sifting needed, no additional shipping charges on top of said prices.
RJG2
Omono
Where do North Easterners get their lava rock? I've found one local source for pumice (MJ grow shop), and 8822 is easy, but haven't found lava rock yet.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Truth truth, if you can't find lava in the MJ grow shop.....
It should be reconsidered as a soil component.
Sorce
