Opposing Thoughts and Practices on Bonsai for Beginners

[Godschick]

I would love to get input from those of you who have been doing Bonsai for sometime now. When you first started out, did you learn by reading, experimenting on nursery stock, both or other avenues ?

I am finding that there are different perspectives and beliefs on this and some with more rigid guidelines. I have found that some people get upset when you do something to a tree that may not have been very successful for some. One of the things that I’ve heard is once you start doing Bonsai, you should not wire for at least 1 to 2 years into your journey. Ect…

Personally I have combined reading, seeking wisdom from those with more experience as well as hands-on. I have definitely done work on a tree that I thought was a risk, but I did it in the spirit of learning and was very hopeful for the success of the tree. My thought is obviously with practice you’re going to have some loss and failures. Of course we all set out to be successful and preserve tree life but in evolving and growing, sometimes we push boundaries and “rules” that are upsetting to some. I have found that some think strictly black-and-white, where others lean on the side of creative and experimenting. And also some combine the two thought processes for doing bonsai. I have found people who do more traditional Bonsai and those who are more creative clashing on how they approach those of us just learning.

Just curious on your perspectives on how one proceeds to learn as we sort through the different practices and not offend those with different approaches?

 

[cmeg1]

Some are fortunate to have good water…… for quite many years I lived at a place with horrible pH water and by the end of the season my trees would look like garbage, but I still managed to enjoy the hobby I finally took a hydroponic course and it’s like night and day.

So let’s not forget the basics of horticulture before all the design attributes

 

[Bonsai Nut]

How to be a successful bonsai beginner

After reading a lot of beginner threads on this site over the years, I am going to create a thread of advice about how to get the best start on your bonsai journey. Simply put - take advantage of all of the people who have gone before you! At some level there is a bit of skeptic in all of us...

www.bonsainut.com

You learn fastest by studying under someone who knows what they're doing. In-person is best, but I think some of the premium online content today is the next best thing (the online bonsai courses).

You learn slowest by just experimenting. I'm not sure I have seen anything done by a beginner (on this site) that hasn't already be done before. If you are doing it just to have fun - have fun! But if you think you will become an advanced bonsai practitioner by learning from scratch what other people already know... it is definitely the slow way to go about it.

 

[Mikecheck123]

You learn slowest by just experimenting

I can't agree more with this, and it manifests itself in so many ways. It's a natural tendency for beginners to want to experiment with new ways of doing stuff that those pesky bonsai guys never thought of trying before. That's growing media, tree species, pruning techniques, and pot selection, to name just a few.

But in reality, experimenting as a beginner with any of these things is a waste of time and often a dead end (or a dead tree).

 

[dbonsaiw]

I've only just started with bonsai, but my two cents:

I have found that some people get upset when you do something to a tree that may not have been very successful for some. One of the things that I’ve heard is once you start doing Bonsai, you should not wire for at least 1 to 2 years into your journey. Ect…

There are arbitrary rules and there are tried and true practices. Not wiring for at least 2 years into the journey and the like - those are arbitrary rules. You should be trying to get as much hands-on experience as possible. Wire random yard trees. Experiment and practice. Not sure anyone would argue with that.

Then there are tried and true practices. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Why would you even want to? It's one thing to try to bend a branch as far as you can and learn from mistakes, but quite another to attempt a repot when hundreds of years of experience advises against this. One is experimentation and the other is just plain dumb.

We try to learn how to keep our trees alive and how to develop them, then we experiment implementing the knowledge we learn.

My thought is obviously with practice you’re going to have some loss and failures.

Losses and failures when attempting to implement tried and true practices is par for the course.

sometimes we push boundaries and “rules” that are upsetting to some.

Because losses and failures when attempting to reinvent the wheel is about all one will get. This one may be about perspective. Imagine you've been practicing bonsai successfully for decades and just about daily a newbie has some new-fangled way of growing a bonsai. It's like watching a train wreck about to happen. You've seen this so many times before and it's just a matter of time before the guy's tree is dead. But no, he knows better than the blood, sweat and tears you put in for so long. The courses you taught. I can see how it can be upsetting.

different approaches

Different approaches to implementing the same scientifically proven facts. For example, no one is ever going to argue about the fundamentals of soil - aeration, drainage and water retention. After that, it's WWIII as everyone has their own conclusions drawn from their own experimentation. What is the best mix for your climate, watering/feeding habits, species, stage of development, etc.? That is for you to experiment.

 

[MSU JBoots]

Why chose? Read. Learn from someone knowledgeable. Practice hands on motor skills. I watched hours of bonsai mirai this winter but when I had to make pruning decisions myself it was a whole new ball game. I’ve never heard wait 2 years to start wiring but it seems to make no sense to me. You have to learn it some time. If a tree needs wire, wire it. I have almost exclusively have nursery stock in my collection so although I never want to kill a tree I don’t have much fear making mistakes with pruning or wiring etc. I’ve been golfing for decades. I could read and watch golf all day long and never get any better. You need to practice. Motor skills like wiring are just the same. Now the horticultural knowledge could be learned from books. Sorry for rambling but in my eyes there’s no reason to only choose one door to walk though when you could utilize all avenues.

 

[Paradox]

It was all so overwhelming for me when i started. There is just so much information and so much to learn. I started with reading, A LOT of reading. Everything I could get my hands on. Books, magazines, forums, blogs, informative websites. Then joined a club and went to a couple of shows. Went to demonstrations at both. Went to a couple of workshops.

I was always afraid to really work on my trees. I did lots of repotting, pruned branches, a little bit of wiring but that was about it.

The break through for me was taking a 2 year course (8 classes) at NEBG. That taught me some of the basics I already was familiar with (repotting, pruning) but built upon that in greater detail and taught me some more advanced stuff. Having someone show me things in person was a big help. The class gave me the courage to work more on my trees on my own and helped me move some of them along their bonsai path.

I also focused on learning the ins and outs of one species of tree at a time real well instead of 10 at a time. It made it easier to keep it all straight.

I still have lots to learn though.
Learning bonsai requires a multi faceted approach. Reading, observation, but most of all you need to work on trees. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[ShadyStump]

experimenting as a beginner with any of these things is a waste

You learn slowest by just experimenting

I'll argue a bit with these statements. Not that they're necessarily inaccurate, but largely for the sake of maintaining a diversified conversation.

I'm somewhat known around here for my foolish tree experiments. I've encouraged others to see through their foolish experiments when they find themselves in over their heads.
Why?
Because I firmly believe we learn FASTER through experimentation and failure, though success certainly comes slower.

I assimilate more information about keeping trees alive by killing them than by just going about the long tried proven methods. Not only do I discover WHY certain things are done, I discover the limits of the trees and the techniques applied. I have a better more instinctive understanding of what my trees need for having experienced first how they survive or die without it. I have a whole bunch of crappy trees to show for it right now, but I won't forever.
Doctors experience cadaver labs while in training, dissecting the dead to discover how disease and injury effect the body. This practice is what REALLY began the growth of medical science. Before human dissection had become common place all there was were "tried and true" techniques handed down to the student from the teacher, and much of it was in reality bunk.
The "noob experiments" should be treated similarly. These are the cadaver labs of bonsai. If the newbie fails to learn what killed the tree, or gets discouraged by the loss of a tree, then bonsai isn't for them.

 

[laufman]

I was always afraid to really work on my trees. I did lots of repotting, pruned branches, a little bit of wiring but that was about it.

The break through for me was taking a 2 year course (8 classes) at NEBG. That taught me some of the basics I already was familiar with (repotting, pruning) but built upon that in greater detail and taught me some more advanced stuff. Having someone show me things in person was a big help. The class gave me the courage to work more on my trees on my own and helped me move some of them along their bonsai path.

And there is the paradox (yes pun intended)... you needed not to be afraid of working on your trees to grow (pun intended again!).

The question for most is, how do you get there. Learning from your mistakes, or your successes? If just rigidly follow advice and you don't understand "why" something worked, when things change, how will you know what to do in the future. Repeat the same failure over and over again?

See this thread this post is in... https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/h...lost-thrown-out-given-up-on.56616/post-979893 Things change. The world is changing, and we each to work out what it means for yourselves in any given location. No blanket rule will get around that. And failure is part of bonsai.

So to the OP, you need to listen to advice, but you need to understand the basis of that advice, and as you say, balance that between creativity, and horticulture and what you are here for. Some people just like to tinker. Tinkering is fun.

 

[Paradox]

I'll argue a bit with these statements. Not that they're necessarily inaccurate, but largely for the sake of maintaining a diversified conversation.

I'm somewhat known around here for my foolish tree experiments. I've encouraged others to see through their foolish experiments when they find themselves in over their heads.
Why?
Because I firmly believe we learn FASTER through experimentation and failure, though success certainly comes slower.

I assimilate more information about keeping trees alive by killing them than by just going about the long tried proven methods. Not only do I discover WHY certain things are done, I discover the limits of the trees and the techniques applied. I have a better more instinctive understanding of what my trees need for having experienced first how they survive or die without it. I have a whole bunch of crappy trees to show for it right now, but I won't forever.
Doctors experience cadaver labs while in training, dissecting the dead to discover how disease and injury effect the body. This practice is what REALLY began the growth of medical science. Before human dissection had become common place all there was were "tried and true" techniques handed down to the student from the teacher, and much of it was in reality bunk.
The "noob experiments" should be treated similarly. These are the cadaver labs of bonsai. If the newbie fails to learn what killed the tree, or gets discouraged by the loss of a tree, then bonsai isn't for them.

I'll submit that by your own admission, you've certainly learned how to make them die.
You need to work more on how to make them live so you can move on to how to make them into bonsai.

 

[bbk]

I'll argue a bit with these statements. Not that they're necessarily inaccurate, but largely for the sake of maintaining a diversified conversation.

I'm somewhat known around here for my foolish tree experiments. I've encouraged others to see through their foolish experiments when they find themselves in over their heads.
Why?
Because I firmly believe we learn FASTER through experimentation and failure, though success certainly comes slower.

I assimilate more information about keeping trees alive by killing them than by just going about the long tried proven methods. Not only do I discover WHY certain things are done, I discover the limits of the trees and the techniques applied. I have a better more instinctive understanding of what my trees need for having experienced first how they survive or die without it. I have a whole bunch of crappy trees to show for it right now, but I won't forever.
Doctors experience cadaver labs while in training, dissecting the dead to discover how disease and injury effect the body. This practice is what REALLY began the growth of medical science. Before human dissection had become common place all there was were "tried and true" techniques handed down to the student from the teacher, and much of it was in reality bunk.
The "noob experiments" should be treated similarly. These are the cadaver labs of bonsai. If the newbie fails to learn what killed the tree, or gets discouraged by the loss of a tree, then bonsai isn't for them.

re the cadaver example, medical students aren’t cutting them up in isolation. They are learning about lots of different things in parallel.

But to emphasise your point, I *think* medical students get to the cadavers quite early in their medical training. It is part of the learning. I *think* they are not expected to understand all the anatomy before commencing work with a cadaver. Just like they are assigned a real baby its birth to follow and learn from. Not just from text books.

The same thing happens in engineering. You learn about failure of materials, by getting a material and making it fail. You just study the theory at the same time.

 

[leatherback]

once you start doing Bonsai, you should not wire for at least 1 to 2 years into your journey

Nonsense. Sorry, but no. Of course, you need to learn how to water etc. And you focus on taking small steps. But just watch a tree for 2 years.. Blah.

There is SO MUCH information everywhere that you just get in, start. Read lots, or watch videos if you prefer. If you have the luck of a good (!) bonsai nursery in the vicinity, take a beginners workshop and/or spend an hour with someone willing to get you started. But.. Then it is about doing too. Experimenting is maybe too much to a trial and error approach. But say you have a young Juniper and you want to wire it, you google wire juniper for bonsai and watch a video, read a few sites. Search this forum and see what people did wrong. Then just get started.

 

[Lorax7]

One of the things that I’ve heard is once you start doing Bonsai, you should not wire for at least 1 to 2 years into your journey. Ect…

That’s stupid advice and you shouldn’t listen to it. There are only 3 ways to learn how to wire. They are: practice, practice, and practice. Do it in the right season. Do it when the tree is healthy and when it doesn’t violate the 1 trauma per year rule of thumb. But, the idea of doing no wiring in the first 2 years? That’s just dumb.

 

[Cajunrider]

When you first started out, did you learn by reading, experimenting on nursery stock, both or other avenues ?

I luck out in a way. I had a solid foundation in biology and horticultural practices both theoretical and practical. When I started out in bonsai, I read a lot and watched some videos. Whatever I read and saw, I put it against my existing knowledge base and only use those that make sense to me. I know the value of practical learning from bonsai master, I will do that some day soon. Until then, when I have a question I come here and some time get Boon's advice. He is amazingly approachable on Facebook. I plan to take his intensive courses fairly soon. Whenever I come to a subject that I can't find the information I need, I will resort to experimentation. I was once a lab rat so experimentation is in my blood. For example, I was curious about Crataegus aestivalis bonsai and there is so little information out there, so I am experimenting on my own and document my effort here.

My bonsai learning is from a mix of reading, experimenting, and learning from experts. It is a bit different for every species, style etc. Think about it: If you only read, you will miss the practical and hands on part. If you only experiment, you are reinventing the wheel many times over. I learn that I don't live long enough to do that.

 

[Paradox]

And there is the paradox (yes pun intended)... you needed not to be afraid of working on your trees to grow (pun intended again!).

The question for most is, how do you get there. Learning from your mistakes, or your successes? If just rigidly follow advice and you don't understand "why" something worked, when things change, how will you know what to do in the future. Repeat the same failure over and over again?

See this thread this post is in... https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/h...lost-thrown-out-given-up-on.56616/post-979893 Things change. The world is changing, and we each to work out what it means for yourselves in any given location. No blanket rule will get around that. And failure is part of bonsai.

So to the OP, you need to listen to advice, but you need to understand the basis of that advice, and as you say, balance that between creativity, and horticulture and what you are here for. Some people just like to tinker. Tinkering is fun.

I am no longer afraid to work on my trees, that was years ago. Mainly that fear stemmed from trying to learn too many trees at once and not being able to keep them straight in my mind.

As I stated, how I got there was to read as much as I could, attend demonstrations nd club meetings, then finally seek out instruction in a class setting with a professional bonsai person as the instructor. Those got me the basic knowledge. Lastly, I started practicing what I had learned by working on my trees.

 

[Hbhaska]

One thing I’ve learned so far that’s pretty useful is that any advice given, be it from a bonsai master or from a book, depends on context. You can’t take one advice as ‘don’t wire’ on its own merit. Don’t wire perhaps applies to wiring and doing too many things to a tree when you haven’t learned the other horticultural aspects of a tree as a beginner. I’ve certainly killed trees wiring as a beginner but also learned when to wire a tree. It’s safe to wire a tree when you don’t do anything else, when the tree is healthy, etc. But I agree with the above comments - learn from experts but also learn by doing!

 

[Maiden69]

Do yourself a favor and get the FREE 30 day Mirai Live subscription. You can binge-watch all the videos you want in those 30 days. There is a wiring series (I think 2 videos totaling almost 3 hrs) that explains wiring in detail, on different types of trees. In addition, the videos are divided into subcategories like season, species, technique, skill level and content type. If you don't think the content if for you, simply cancel the subscription before the 30 days pass and you will not be charged. If you like it, that month is free, and they start charging you the next month.

I think the main issue with videos vs in person is the means in which the information is being delivered. In person you can see what is going on in a 3D perspective, which makes it a lot easier to interpret when you go work on your tree. Online is a 2D, and it doesn't translate well when you go do hands on.

I've been doing this for 3 years now, and I have 2 casualties. A Luma Apiculata that I failed to provide adequate protection during a hard freeze, and a Mugo Pine, which I was almost certain wouldn't make it here in Texas, but was too stubborn to not try... it died in the beginning of the second year I had it.

 

[ShadyStump]

I'll submit that by your own admission, you've certainly learned how to make them die.
You need to work more on how to make them live so you can move on to how to make them into bonsai.

Totally fair.
I'll counter by saying that my nursing skills have improved impressively. I still have much to learn about PREVENTING the issues I wind up treating, but because of the casualties I've dealt with I can now identify things of concern almost immediately and take action.
I'd argue that this skill will go further in developing good bonsai than the skill of avoiding the ultimately inevitable.

To be clear, I don't go out of my way to kills trees, and I don't go into anything with the expectation of failure, though my cynical jokes may sound otherwise. I simply accept that my actions may not turn out like I hope, and observe everything I can.
It's often said that failure is a better teacher than success, and I follow that up with Bruce Lee.
"Don't fear failure.
Not failure, but low aim is the crime. In great attempts it is glorious even to fail."

 

[Godschick]

Well this post just took off and I’m thankful for all the feedback to all of you! I will definitely check out some of the posts, websites and videos you all have suggested. I’m currently doing all three approaches to learning. Sometimes getting mixed messages on what to do and not to do can be difficult to sort through. And sometimes it’s even made me apprehensive. I’ve just been running into some opposing approaches and want to remain respectful. I guess some are definitely arbitrary and some are tried and true practices. I think even in that, people differ on what is arbitrary and what is tried and true. I have been reading a ton, going to Bonsai clubs and groups, volunteering and of course experimenting. Sometimes in my experimenting, I have push some limits. I have even gone against the “one insult a year” rule with nursery stock. Thankfully they’re still living and thriving! My little collection now is pre-bonsai, nursery stock, cuttings etc. I’d rather practice and make mistakes on these than down the road have some thing valuable and make mistakes with that. Honestly I’ve only lost two trees, both saplings that were not even worked on. I’m very much a hands-on learner and want to diversify and really perfect my hands on skills. I think with that comes a little bit of failure and I think that makes some uncomfortable. Some people think you learn by failing and some by succeeding, I’m hoping both

 

[dbonsaiw]

Sometimes in my experimenting, I have push some limits. I have even gone against the “one insult a year” rule with nursery stock.

Not so sure the one insult per year rule is actually a thing outside of pines and the like.

Sometimes getting mixed messages on what to do and not to do can be difficult to sort through.

I am a big fan of the KISS approach - keep it simple stupid. There's a lot to learn, but I believe that the fundamentals can be explained relatively quickly and then implemented. And when I say implemented, I say this in the least arrogant way possible. I aspire to develop trees like the ones I've seen on this site, but have no misconceptions about my skill level. Tried and true technique and experimentation in implementation should produce finished trees. Will Mach5 be hounding me to buy my trees? Probably not. That's because the level of development needed to produce a tree like that will require a more nuanced approach. Newbs should be taught to develop newb trees, not butcher everything they touch because they are being advised to

I think there can be a one-stop for newbs to get very basic information without all the nuance and disagreement. For example, I don't think explaining soil has to be the equivalent of astrophysics, requiring folks to experiment with endless soil combinations and get a degree in soil mechanics. I could swear I listened to a video of Walter Pall saying he uses whatever he has lying around. Of course, he understands the fundamentals of soil and therefore can do this effectively (assuming that's what he does). The answer to the question of "I'm a newb and need soil, what should I get?" should have an answer. Maybe something like, "X is a safe bet, but here are all of the details". I think this is confusing, but not nearly as confusing as it's made out to be.

I tried to do this with a thread on choosing material and planned on posting other similar threads. Was a little hesitant as I'm a newb myself and the last thing I want to do is give the wrong info. I have one on soil that I may just post and open it up for inevitable criticism.

Another example - knowing when to repot shouldn't be rocket science either. Of course, circumstances will arise where expert opinions are needed. But otherwise, one should have a firm enough grasp of plant biology and the tried and true practices to answer the simple question themselves.