Original Bonsai Work Of Art?

[Brian Underwood]

So, the question is; What makes a tree YOURS? We have all bought material in many different stages of development and added our own little touches here and there, but what makes it an original work of art? Is it a tree that you have worked on for 5 years? changed it so much it is unrecognizable from the time you got it? Grown yourself? Single-handedly worked from rough stock/collected material to show quality bonsai?

Of course this is going to be another opinion based question and will probably never have a definitive answer, but it is interesting nonetheless.

 

[grouper52]

Of course this is going to be another opinion based question and will probably never have a definitive answer . . . .

"While we are all entitled to our own opinions....

Incorrect. Everyone is entitled to MY opinion."

There. Corrected that.

 

[John Ruger]

From the moment you accept the piece it is yours, From that point it becomes a matter of stewardship; you can either accept that responsibility with humility and care or not, the choice is yours. What ever degree of change you impart to the material leaves your personal impression and no one can take that away.

 

[stacy allen muse]

I think the answer would be found in the styling of the tree...
for instance
when I paint... paint is paint, paper is paper.
I am the one who created the art using a media to express myself.
If someone takes my art and changes it... it is for the most part now theirs.
If they maintain it in my original form, they are only doing upkeep.

Being that a plant is living, and a constant changing entitiy...
I feel there is some room for allowing one to maintain a tree,
"In the Spirit of" what the original stylist intended as well...

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Of course this is going to be another opinion based question and will probably never have a definitive answer, but it is interesting nonetheless.

and when it gets asked.... it usually starts a flame war.... I am of the mind that when you buy it ... it's yours ... beyond that.... I don't much care... and neither should ne one else...

I can tell the difference between a collector and a practitioner and sometimes that line is pretty grey.... but each has their virtues and neither is less than the other... its one of those things I think people should spend as little time discussing as possible.... (i've prolly put too much time in already)


no disrespect intended to you Brian I just think we should focus less on bonsai being about the artist and focus more on it being about the tree ... regardless of who did the work

begin rant --

I get a little perturbed when I see a great looking tree that gets little respect or comment because the artist who worked on it is not outspoken or well known, and then I see a tree that is above average but maybe not as good (certainly not better) than the other tree get more attention because the artist is well known. That crap pisses me off to no end. That is all because of the hero culture we have in this country and its getting a little out of hand, I think this is why a lot of great trees by great artists are hiding out in this country.... because the trees get little or no respect because no one has ever heard of the artist (except in their local groups). I am happy tho that US National Exhibition has done a great job in changing this... I look forward to its growth...

end rant --

p.s. see what you did you got me all riled up!!

 

[Mike423]

"I am of the mind that when you buy it ... it's yours ... beyond that.... I don't much care... and neither should ne one else..."

I agree full heartily, but I still dont get the same level of self accomplishment as something that originates from very rough stock with no real refined distinctive qualities. Yamadori I would say is second place. While collected material has a raw sense of natural beauty it is still a different feeling in my view and you cant feel the same level of accomplishment as something you shaped from raw material into something truly beautiful (at least in you mind).


"I get a little perturbed when I see a great looking tree that gets little respect or comment because the artist who worked on it is not outspoken or well known, and then I see a tree that is above average but maybe not as good (certainly not better) than the other tree get more attention because the artist is well known. That crap pisses me off to no end. That is all because of the hero culture we have in this country and its getting a little out of hand, I think this is why a lot of great trees by great artists are hiding out in this country.... because the trees get little or no respect because no one has ever heard of the artist (except in their local groups). I am happy tho that US National Exhibition has done a great job in changing this... I look forward to its growth... "

Couldn't have said it better myself., and here I thought I was the only one

 

[bonsaiTOM]

And I am happy to get the plug in -
3RD U.S. National Bonsai Exhibition June 9-10, Rochester, NY
Check it out here -
http://www.internationalbonsai.com/store/1708315/uploaded/2012_national_exhibition/index.html

 

[Mark]

Testify Brothers!!!
It is hard to discribe the feeling of being in the presence of such amazing Bonsai from so many Artists from all across the USA!

 

[Vance Wood]

Testify Brothers!!!
It is hard to describe the feeling of being in the presence of such amazing Bonsai from so many Artists from all across the USA!

I agree it should be about the tree. In Japan it is for the most part because there are so many recognized artists who work on so many trees that belong to a third party, that this is custom. But in America there is a slightly different picture. As things are now we have more artists trying to achieve recognition for their work at different shows where many will take exception when someone comes with a "ringer" and passes it off as his/hers own work. It is kind of a bonsai plagiarism. When awards are given for best new talent and things like that, and the winner in fact has a bonsai styled by Kimura or someone else it tends to not only cloud the issue but creates some really bad feelings.

One way you can look at it is as if there are two perceptions of a bonsai show. First would be like a dog show where no one can take credit for the dog, it is what it is, the owner gets recognition for having the dog, not making it. Second would be an art show where the artist paints a picture of a dog and gets credit for artistic accomplishment. Another way to look at it: One is judging the journey to get there, the other is judging the result at the destination.

We are kind of torn between these two ways of looking at things. It does not make either one bad or irrelevant the only problem is when we try to mix the two where someone is always trying to game the system. Is your show about wonderful trees, or is it about recognizing artistic achievement? Issue arise when someone from the wonderful trees camp decides he/she wants recognition from the artistic achievement crowd by entering a tree designed by someone other than themselves, but claims it is their own work. Often this boils down to what we used to call the victory of the check book artist.

Point in contention: If you desire recognition as an artist in your own right then it is incumbent upon you to produce your own entry, or at least kept a third party tree alive for several years and or made significant changes to it. If in your mind it is about the tree sign on the dotted line till your 401K goes in the red and enter the wonderfull trees contest.

 

[bonsai barry]

I get a little perturbed when I see a great looking tree that gets little respect or comment because the artist who worked on it is not outspoken or well known, and then I see a tree that is above average but maybe not as good (certainly not better) than the other tree get more attention because the artist is well known. That crap pisses me off to no end. That is all because of the hero culture we have in this country and its getting a little out of hand, I think this is why a lot of great trees by great artists are hiding out in this country.... because the trees get little or no respect because no one has ever heard of the artist (except in their local groups). I am happy tho that US National Exhibition has done a great job in changing this... I look forward to its growth...

end rant --

p.s. see what you did you got me all riled up!!

So, are you suggesting that it isn't appropriate for me to autograph my trees? See my e-bay store for great deals on autographed trees (JJ).

 

[Gene Deci]

We are kind of torn between these two ways of looking at things. It does not make either one bad or irrelevant the only problem is when we try to mix the two where someone is always trying to game the system. Is your show about wonderful trees, or is it about recognizing artistic achievement? Issue arise when someone from the wonderful trees camp decides he/she wants recognition from the artistic achievement crowd by entering a tree designed by someone other than themselves, but claims it is their own work. Often this boils down to what we used to call the victory of the check book artist.

Point in contention: If you desire recognition as an artist in your own right then it is incumbent upon you to produce your own entry, or at least kept a third party tree alive for several years and or made significant changes to it. If in your mind it is about the tree sign on the dotted line till your 401K goes in the red and enter the wonderfull trees contest.

Well said Vance. That describes the issues nicely and they are real issues. But no shows really are for one or the other. I love to look at great trees and I do appreciate them for their own sake. But I usually wonder- Who did that tree? That is a valid question even at a wonderful tree show.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well said Vance. That describes the issues nicely and they are real issues. But no shows really are for one or the other. I love to look at great trees and I do appreciate them for their own sake. But I usually wonder- Who did that tree? That is a valid question even at a wonderful tree show.

The wonderful tree show is a description of how it works in Japan. Most exhibitors have their trees worked on and tweaked by some renown master, this is a given, so this does not become an issue unless the master really blew it---which happens. A number of years ago Kimura came under fire for a White Pine that had developed a bulge in the trunk. Consequently he published an article of how he eliminated this problem and the criticism went away.

In America where we have few Masters and most exhibitors want to be known for their own work and are usually recognized for it. Especially if the tree is drop dead gorgeous. Then there are those who argue that it is about trees and that's fine as well. As I said earlier the problem arises when those who purchase trees want to hide the fact that they did not do the work but want the recognition as though they had.

Now: If you have a show that is judged and the artist is supposed to get the award for creating the best tree, then someone comes along with a "ringer" (a tree designed by some master) and sweeps the awards with a check book and someone else's work, hardly seems fair. In the over-all scheme of things a rubber chicken is a rubber chicken but to someone who has been trying to develop and grow along with his/her trees it becomes a significant issue when that recognition is basically stolen and someone who really never designed a tree gets all the accolades. In circumstances like this it becomes an issue of who can afford the best tree not who has the talent to designed the best tree. It does not take talent to write a big check for a great tree but don't enter a Porsche in a soap box derby.

 

[Ron Dennis]

I read this thread with great interest. Thanks, Brian, for starting this one. Totally agree it is all about the tree itself! I think the tree is mine at the point of purchase, growing or collecting.

Another factor for me is I started bonsai late in life due to various reasons mostly a job requiring constant travel. For me to "own" a finished or nearly finished tree I have totally styled and cared for is unlikely due to life span remaining; therefore, I look for trees appealing to me that others are willing to part with. The flip side of this coin is I wonder who will care for my trees in the future. I do have a JBP that Peter Warren helped me (actually, he did most of the initial work) and I really hope that I will see this tree close to being finished.

Even though the trees are not mine, one of my great joys is to see others' trees. There are so many wonderful trees out there. So many different visions of what can be done. This is one of the main reasons I come to this forum almost every day.

Because I or someone else may not see the beauty in any one tree does not mean that another person may not immediately see the tree's beauty and immediately know what and how to do to enhance the tree.

 

[John Ruger]

In circumstances like this it becomes an issue of who can afford the best tree not who has the talent to designed the best tree. It does not take talent to write a big check for a great tree but don't enter a Porsche in a soap box derby.

Very true, but here you start to get into a really sticky situation of determining pedigree of ownership. It would be a lot like citing sources when writing an academic thesis-who do you give credit to? What you are proposing to eliminate, and I think someone else already used the term, is "bonsai plagiarism". Mind you, I've never been to a show, never had any interest in bonsai competition, or the like, so I'm I speaking from a point of total ignorance here. How do you eliminate this type of activity? Is it even possible to do so?

 

[grouper52]

and when it gets asked.... it usually starts a flame war.... I am of the mind that when you buy it ... it's yours ... beyond that.... I don't much care... and neither should ne one else...

Agree. If someone steals it and I'm pissed, it was my tree.

 

[Smoke]

Making this way to complicated. First remove the ego about ownership and who designed it. If this art were stagnet this talk would make sense. This is a living art form and these trees given proper care will all out live us, so they may see many caretakers.

List the provenence if you know it and allow people to appreciate the tree. Most California exhibits are shown without name tags anyway so who cares. I didn't go to the exhibit to read who owned it anyway. I went to see and appreciate a piece of art........such that it is.

 

[Smoke]

Now: In circumstances like this it becomes an issue of who can afford the best tree not who has the talent to designed the best tree. It does not take talent to write a big check for a great tree but don't enter a Porsche in a soap box derby.

I don't enter my trees in soap box derbies, I enter mine in concours d'elegance, where the porche's go. You can keep the soap box derby. Then I let the tree stand on it's own. when it fails, I start looking for those guys with the big names and how much a better piece of material will cost me. "That" my friend is how the game is played.

In America it's fish or cut bait.

If that does not suit your fancy then entering photographs of "Masterpiece's from nursery stock" will have to suffice. Then you can be assured all the trees will be of soap box derby caliber.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't enter my trees in soap box derbies, I enter mine in concours d'elegance, where the porche's go. You can keep the soap box derby. Then I let the tree stand on it's own. when it fails, I start looking for those guys with the big names and how much a better piece of material will cost me. "That" my friend is how the game is played.

In America it's fish or cut bait.

If that does not suit your fancy then entering photographs of "Masterpiece's from nursery stock" will have to suffice. Then you can be assured all the trees will be of soap box derby caliber.

There is no reason to be insulting Al, but if that's the best you've got---- I have no idea why you think you had to go there? I didn't start this thread.

 

[grouper52]

There is no reason to be insulting Al, but if that's the best you've got----

Let me be the first to officially move this to the flame war we all knew it would become by pointing out that that IS the best Al's got: arrogant elitism and some boringly predictable trees that will win the game he is playing.

Play on, Big Al. You da Man, da Man with the Porsches!

Yawn.

 

[Vance Wood]

Let me be the first to officially move this to the flame war we all knew it would become by pointing out that that IS the best Al's got: arrogant elitism and some boringly predictable trees that will win the game he is playing.

Play on, Big Al. You da Man, da Man with the Porsches!

Yawn.

I'm really sorry it had to go here.