Over styling a Bonsai...

[Adair M]

From a post on Eisei-en's Facebook page (where the link in the OP takes us) posted within hours of this thread : (emphasis mine)

Bazinga!!!

I thought it was grafted!

Wayne, you da Man!

 

[bwaynef]

You do a great Sheldon, Adair.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you look carefully, there is a little metal tag hanging from the bottom right branch. It is a designation that states that the tree is an “Important Cultural Masterpiece”. I don’t know how many bonsai have been awarded such a designation, but it is a great honor.

Now, as for the styling, it is styled using the “pagoda” style, mimicking the temples.

Bjorne is a master of that style. In Japan, it is very popular, and there is a market for trees styled on that manner. Bjorne also uses the techniques when styling other types, he is known for putting very straight, level bottoms of pads on his work. Again, this is very marketable in Japan. Not on shinpaku, but also JWP.

I personally prefer a softer style, more like what Kimora and Suzuki do, but I respect the skill and patience it takes to do what Bjorn does. I asked him about it at the Nationals, and his response was he wires and styles thinking about what the tree will look like in a year after new growth has come in. Immediately after wiring, the tree does look a bit artificial, but a year later it softens up and looks more natural.

I have watched everything he has shared on the net for free I might add and if you pay attention and listen other than try to find fault you will understand why sometimes a freshly styled tree tends to look contrived. The reason, he points out, is in producing the detail as defined as he has done is for the sake of the next year or so when the detail softens out and the tree comes into its own making it better for displaying at a show. It't like aging a marinara sauce (my analogy).

 

[Vance Wood]

I understand what Bolero is saying here. I am amazed at what many bonsai pros can produce but I have a deep and reverent affection for bonsai that mimic natural growing trees. There is definitely place for both views. I have seen many pieces that had unnaturally massive trunks that look like they are ready to collapse upon themselves and some pieces that were so twisted it looks like they are about to explode, and they are indeed dynamic and amazing works. Most of these are beyond my skill level. I have only recently gotten back into bonsai, though I do have a few I have had for 30 years. I tried my hand at bonsai first about 40 years ago as a form of meditation and still I like my trees to impart a sense of tranquility. Thus my favorite styles personally are literati and windswept which exemplify this feeling.
But I am still young, not quite 70 yet, and I have a lot to learn and a lot more to experience.

You have to understand that you could walk the mountains for years and seldom come accros a single tree that looks like one of the masterpiece bonsai you may have drooled over in years past. Bonsai is an exercise in surrealism, literal mimicking is virtually impossible because a tree without some sort of human expression is as interesting as a lecture on the quality of collected garbage over that which is thrown in the street. There have been many stick in a pot artists and masters in their own minds come and go--- mostly go. It seems that once you have a couple of years doing bonsai and realize that basically bonsai is simple to do (so you think), you go into the hubris stage of learning bonsai and start informing everybody that they are doing it wrong. Then there comes the epiphany stage where you realize all that crap you thought was spot on was really a spot on something but not bonsai at all. Then you want to learn to do bonsai, and will finally realize that you don't know anything.

I don't mean to offend anyone but I do wish to express what I think, you can give me a thumbs up or the finger, I don't care, but if you learn then I have accomplished something.

 

[Adair M]

I have watched everything he has shared on the net for free I might add and if you pay attention and listen other than try to find fault you will understand why sometimes a freshly styled tree tends to look contrived. The reason, he points out, is in producing the detail as defined as he has done is for the sake of the next year or so when the detail softens out and the tree comes into its own making it better for displaying at a show. It't like aging a marinara sauce (my analogy).

I agree, Vance, and I said as much in the bottom of post no. 15 of this thread.

 

[Adair M]

You do a great Sheldon, Adair.

It comes naturally!

 

[leatherback]

It seems that once you have a couple of years doing bonsai and realize that basically bonsai is simple to do (so you think), you go into the hubris stage of learning bonsai and start informing everybody that they are doing it wrong. Then there comes the epiphany stage where you realize all that crap you thought was spot on was really a spot on something but not bonsai at all. Then you want to learn to do bonsai, and will finally realize that you don't know anything.

Nailed it, I think. In order to truly learn and develop to the next level, you have to face your own shortcomings, which makes self-development so hard for most of us.

 

[Bolero]

Vance Wood said:
You have to understand that you could walk the mountains for years and seldom come accros a single tree that looks like one of the masterpiece bonsai you may have drooled over in years past. Bonsai is an exercise in surrealism, literal mimicking is virtually impossible because a tree without some sort of human expression is as interesting as a lecture on the quality of collected garbage over that which is thrown in the street.

Bolero says:
Right on Vance...and I will add something we all know "Beauty is in the Eyes of the Beholder" and Classic Bonsai is the Artistic Manipulation and Pruning required to arrive at a Japanese Classic Masterpiece.....

 

[rockm]

Pictures of several of my Bonsai, Saikei, Penjing projects.....

View attachment 226099View attachment 226101View attachment 226102View attachment 226103View attachment 226099View attachment 226101View attachment 226102View attachment 226103

Not to be an asshole, but these photos explain a lot about where you're coming from. In light of your compositions, I find the criticism of the Eisei-en juniper rather curious.

Your "less is more" argument is blunted by what you're actually doing. Mudmen, forest paths, rocks, tightly packed trunks are not less, they are more--a lot more. Some would say they're mostly useless and kitchy... Such elements are not really considered in bonsai. They're closer to penjing's "busier" composition elements. Using penjing to judge bonsai is like going to a dog show and expecting horses in the ring.

Japanese bonsai and penjing are separate arts, although they are closely related.

 

[rockm]

I'm with Bolero here, and tend toward the more 'natural' look. Go onto any bonsai - for-sale website and see these naturally straight trees, kinked and pressured into S-bends and squiggles that just aren't natural. They don't look right. They've never moved with the breeze or dared to drop a needle. From what I can gather, the art of bonsai is all about the ego of the artist, not the beauty of nature. Yeah, less is more.

Then this video will probably horrify you--

Chain saws, rebar, flipping a tree upside down...
This Artist has always had quite an ego, but his results are world-famous, even if they're more akin to modern sculpture than to "natural" trees.
FWIW, bonsai sales on the Internet that sell "S" curved trees are schlock. You're not looking in the right places.

 

[Adair M]

Not to be an asshole, but these photos explain a lot about where you're coming from. In light of your compositions, I find the criticism of the Eisei-en juniper rather curious.

Your "less is more" argument is blunted by what you're actually doing. Mudmen, forest paths, rocks, tightly packed trunks are not less, they are more--a lot more. Some would say they're mostly useless and kitchy... Such elements are not really considered in bonsai. They're closer to penjing's "busier" composition elements. Using penjing to judge bonsai is like going to a dog show and expecting horses in the ring.

Japanese bonsai and penjing are separate arts, although they are closely related.

@rockm, I don’t think the juniper is at Eisei-en, which is Bjorn’s nursery near Nashville. It’s still in Japan at Kouka-en where Bjorn trained. Bjorn returns there from time to time to help out for special events, such as Kokofu-ten.

 

[bwaynef]

@rockm, I don’t think the juniper is at Eisei-en, which is Bjorn’s nursery near Nashville. It’s still in Japan at Kouka-en where Bjorn trained. Bjorn returns there from time to time to help out for special events, such as Kokofu-ten.

From my earlier quoted piece.

Revisiting this ancient grafted Itoigawa Shimpaku at Kouka-en this week.

 

[rockm]

@rockm, I don’t think the juniper is at Eisei-en, which is Bjorn’s nursery near Nashville. It’s still in Japan at Kouka-en where Bjorn trained. Bjorn returns there from time to time to help out for special events, such as Kokofu-ten.

Should've said "on Eisei-En's Facebook page"

 

[Bolero]

Then this video will probably horrify you--

Chain saws, rebar, flipping a tree upside down...
This Artist has always had quite an ego, but his results are world-famous, even if they're more akin to modern sculpture than to "natural" trees.
FWIW, bonsai sales on the Internet that sell "S" curved trees are schlock. You're not looking in the right places.

I watched the video and enjoyed it immensely....the Artist created a Beautiful and Artistic Tree Sculpture from that Collected Juniper...

 

[Vance Wood]

An argument of concern about something that would not exist if it were not for being trained as a bonsai. Many of these highly stylized Junipers, for the most part, are not collected as is from the mountains but are the result of extensive grafting. Therefore they exist to be what their owners, care takers, and artists say they are. The fact remains that it is one thing to be critical it is another to have the evidence that you know what you are talking about. Assuming the latter, do you have the ability to do the kind of grafting you seem to be critical of, and if you did what would you do with it?

 

[Bolero]

Rockm said...
Your "less is more" argument is blunted by what you're actually doing. Mudmen, forest paths, rocks, tightly packed trunks are not less, they are more--a lot more. Some would say they're mostly useless and kitchy... Such elements are not really considered in bonsai. They're closer to penjing's "busier" composition elements. Using penjing to judge bonsai is like going to a dog show and expecting horses in the ring.

Bolero says:

I'm not comparing Penjing to Bonsai, never said that'''
My shown Maple Tree Penjing & Koto Hime Bonsai are Show winners...
Less is More was not to describe Penjing but could also be used there...
I'm sorry that you are so hung up on Critizing rathe than just stating an opinion..
I maintain that Bonsai, Penjing, Saikei Gardening is a very rewarding endeavor regardless of ones personal skill level...

 

[rockm]

I watched the video and enjoyed it immensely....the Artist created a Beautiful and Artistic Tree Sculpture from that Collected Juniper...

Funny, because Masahiko Kimura does ANYTHING but "less is more" The video shows him basically moving all the foliage on the tree to THE OPPOSITE END of the trunk. The process basically saws live veins from the main trunk, so they can bent drastically repositioned using concrete rebar and wire. It is extremely aggressive styling. Kimura DOES NOT consider it to be "artistic tree sculpting" -- which is a pretty weak, non-specific euphemism...He considers what he does as Bonsai, period.

 

[rockm]

Rockm said...
Your "less is more" argument is blunted by what you're actually doing. Mudmen, forest paths, rocks, tightly packed trunks are not less, they are more--a lot more. Some would say they're mostly useless and kitchy... Such elements are not really considered in bonsai. They're closer to penjing's "busier" composition elements. Using penjing to judge bonsai is like going to a dog show and expecting horses in the ring.

Bolero says:

I'm not comparing Penjing to Bonsai, never said that'''
My shown Maple Tree Penjing & Koto Hime Bonsai are Show winners...
Less is More was not to describe Penjing but could also be used there...
I'm sorry that you are so hung up on Critizing rathe than just stating an opinion..
I maintain that Bonsai, Penjing, Saikei Gardening is a very rewarding endeavor regardless of ones personal skill level...

OK, here's my opinion--

You really have no idea what you're talking about, yet feel free to criticize that which you have no real understanding of. (FWIW, If your maple tree penjing and Koto Hime won at shows, I'd ask what shows were those and what did they win?)

Of course bonsai and penjing are enjoyable at many levels, which is why I find your flat opinion on the tree you originally posted as "bizarre."

You started this thread off with uniformed criticism of an extremely competent and talented bonsai professional's expert work with an established, well-known Japanese tree.

 

[Bolero]

Funny, because Masahiko Kimura does ANYTHING but "less is more" The video shows him basically moving all the foliage on the tree to THE OPPOSITE END of the trunk. The process basically saws live veins from the main trunk, so they can bent drastically repositioned using concrete rebar and wire. It is extremely aggressive styling. Kimura DOES NOT consider it to be "artistic tree sculpting" -- which is a pretty weak, non-specific euphemism...He considers what he does as Bonsai, period.

You simply prove that we are all capable of having our own opinion of what we see, in your case you see a Bonsai, in my case I see an Artistically stylized tree sculpture... A Collected Juniper in either case.

 

[Deleted member 21616]