Overwatering Tridents?

[thatguy]

Chagrin...Chastised...etc

Case history:
Trident maple seedlings in 2 3/4 and 4" pots brought home roughly 6 weeks ago.
Very light if any root pruning, gentle raking, put into 4" shallow bulb pots
Soil mixture at the time (early days of obsession) was 60% turface, 20% pine bark, 10% river rock, 10% organic humus/peat
Left in shade out of wind for approx 2 weeks
Moved to full sun position 4 weeks ago
Minimal new growth, but some.
Noticed some early/premature fall foliage, and now a few leaves turning brown.
Temps over first 2-4 weeks were high, occasionally in above 90F, cooler the last week or two

Assumption: Due to shallow nature of the pots (not draining as fast), profundity of turface and organics/lack of drainage aggregate, and overzealous love n care (ie watering too frequently) the roots have been strangled somewhat by being waterlogged thus inhibiting water uptake stunting growth and harming leaves.

The 4" pots I shifted to larger containers and have been watering less often as a result and when I do water I assume it drains more readily to the bottom/water table. Thus those trees look healthier, less leaf browning though some premature fall colors.

Should I: Remove them from their soil, leave roots alone, and then add in new well draining medium around the same pots? I could shift them into a more vertical pot at this time also? My soil availability now ranges from lava, pumice, haydite, crushed granite. All in varying sifted sizes.

My junipers and other trees seem to be doing well. They're also in freer draining soils and get watered less as that is what Ive read they prefer. Seeing some things about deciduous trees liking to be kept more moist lulled me into believing I should water every few days. When likely I didn't give the roots a chance to establish properly before doing so. As they were so tender they needed less water, more oxygen. In my head I was going "Well a fresh watering pulls oxygen into the soil." But that soil isn't as free draining as it could be and the shallower pot wouldn't drain as fast as the taller ones.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome! I'm learning trees are very good communicators.

 

[Mikecheck123]

For the love of God leave the roots alone we're in the middle of summer. Even "gentle raking" is highly traumatic in August.

The mix looks fine to me. It's true that a taller container will help with drainage, but don't go any wider than what you have now. I don't see any reason that you can't be watering every day if it's 90F.

Make sure water is flowing out the bottom when you do water. Don't just splash the top.

 

[thatguy]

For the love of God leave the roots alone we're in the middle of summer. Even "gentle raking" is highly traumatic in August.

The mix looks fine to me. It's true that a taller container will help with drainage, but don't go any wider than what you have now. I don't see any reason that you can't be watering every day if it's 90F.

Make sure water is flowing out the bottom when you do water. Don't just splash the top.

Did the raking/trimming to get them un-pot bound per some sound advice I felt I should follow. If this turns out for the worse then serious lesson learned! Water always flows through. I don't believe it is an issue of not watering deeply enough. If you had pot bound deciduous trees in nursery containers in summer, what would the proper method be for shifting them out of those containers? Simply wait until fall? Or?

 

[bwaynef]

Unless water pools at the top ...and attempts to make it drain are unsuccessful, I'd repot in the spring.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Since you apparently have the time to water them, cut back on the organics and lose the turface. My second year trident seedlings are in 40% pumice, 40% haydite, and 20% pine bark in 8” bulb pans and grew like weeds this summer. I water once a day and they put out roots through the drain holes which has helped their growth I am sure. Next spring they are going into nursery trays to begin training as a forest and clump plantings.

 

[thatguy]

Since you apparently have the time to water them, cut back on the organics and lose the turface. My second year trident seedlings are in 40% pumice, 40% haydite, and 20% pine bark in 8” bulb pans and grew like weeds this summer. I water once a day and they put out roots through the drain holes which has helped their growth I am sure. Next spring they are going into nursery trays to begin training as a forest and clump plantings.

Roots through the drain holes! That is the growth I am aiming for. While working from home since March I have plenty of time to tend to the plants. When I repot in Spring I will definitely do a freer draining mix with better aeration. What do you fertilize with and what amt/schedule?

 

[MrWunderful]

I have tridents in collanders, terra cotta and plastic pots. I have mine in 80% akadama, 10% pine bark and 10% pumice/lava and they STILL dry out in my super foggy weather. They seem to take all the water I can give.

If I had to bet, I would place the blame on the turface. I know some people swear by it, but from my experience it drys out really fast.

I also think the flat surfaces oF turface tend to shed water instead of absorbing it like an irregular surface medium.

Try to soak the pots in water whenever its dry and windy out.

 

[leatherback]

So, be more carefull watering and allow them to get established. I would not repot. But only water when you see that the substrate really is drying out between watering

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Roots through the drain holes! That is the growth I am aiming for. While working from home since March I have plenty of time to tend to the plants. When I repot in Spring I will definitely do a freer draining mix with better aeration. What do you fertilize with and what amt/schedule?

I hit them every couple weeks with MiracleGro.

 

[erich_raudebaugh]

I tried turface one season a long time ago and had results like these, and I've never used it again. Hate the stuff. You may be watering too much, but if you repot out of season don't touch the roots. Tridents don't mind being repotted a bit later, but only as late as just after the leaves emerge. I up-pot young seedlings like these sometimes at random times during the year, but you should always just leave the roots completely alone.

I'm sure there's a way to water trees potted with turface correctly, but you might be having the problem that I did, where you switch to a new soil medium and have to water differently. Ditch the turface is my advice.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yep, dunno about that mix.

I put all my Trident seedlings in Boon mix and they are exploding with growth. Same with all the older ones.
Watered every single day this summer, except during the two rainstorms. They are in 4" pots and 1 gallon nursery pots mostly except for the big guys and are so top heavy that I've had to cut them back every month. Use 6 month slow release and fish fert every 10 days.

Those brown leaf tips look suspiciously like overwatering, especially with lower pots that actually hold more water per unit.....
If not, I'd recommend you get some 1x2 or cut wedges or just get 1-2" stones and chock one side of each pot up to improve the drainage . Its a PacNW thing that helps improve drainage.

Please to let us know what you do and how that works for you?

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[thatguy]

Thank you for the replies and advice everyone!!

Yep, dunno about that mix.

I put all my Trident seedlings in Boon mix and they are exploding with growth. Same with all the older ones.
Watered every single day this summer, except during the two rainstorms. They are in 4" pots and 1 gallon nursery pots mostly except for the big guys and are so top heavy that I've had to cut them back every month. Use 6 month slow release and fish fert every 10 days.

Those brown leaf tips look suspiciously like overwatering, especially with lower pots that actually hold more water per unit.....
If not, I'd recommend you get some 1x2 or cut wedges or just get 1-2" stones and chock one side of each pot up to improve the drainage . Its a PacNW thing that helps improve drainage.

Please to let us know what you do and how that works for you?

Cheers
DSD sends

Oof what a good idea to tip the pots slightly! Since they're arranged in rows I'll get some 1x2 or other thin material and make slats to prop up the whole row. I've certainly heard good things about the boon mix, and I think with the components I have now I'll be able to replicate it in spring when I repot.

Will keep this thread updated when I see some new developments hopefully in the right direction!

 

[thatguy]

Catastrophe! Windy day here, gusts over 20mph. Did I mention these trident saplings are about a meter tall in some cases? ....So one bit the dust, luckily from a low height where I had them placed. And blessing in disguise I was able to see some nice white healthy roots emanating from the rootball! So, all is not lost here (not that it was, but nice to get a reminder). As I was replacing the soil from that guy but before I could address the issue at hand another blew over F2@I)!&7sK^@*$##! Also had new roots tho! Got those two situated and then situated some bricks on the pot rims to keep everyone solidly on terra firma. Hopefully with a less aggressive watering scheme they will thrive over the next weeks until winter.

Also how the heck do you keep young whips from whipping around in the wind??? Shallow potted yet tall guys are a real PITA... Any tips?

 

[leatherback]

Also how the heck do you keep young whips from whipping around in the wind??

seedling trays

 

[leatherback]

Shallow potted yet tall guys are a real PITA... Any tips?

REAL shallow trays. And connecting the whip to the pot, not the roots.

 

[thatguy]

REAL shallow trays. And connecting the whip to the pot, not the roots.
View attachment 326056

Ahh those would work well with the tie down at the Y. May have to try and source some. The real issue is these dang things are so high... Need a hard chop once dormancy sets in this winter. Get the branching down low instead of 3 feet above the ground.

 

[leatherback]

May have to try and source some.

Sold as organizer trays for your shelves, sourced in a local hardware store..

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I huddle them or toss ‘em in an unused pot.

 

[thatguy]

I huddle them or toss ‘em in an unused pot.View attachment 326124

I like that your pots are square too. The round bulb pots make that challenging. Tho I probably could find a tray intended to hold them still

 

[thatguy]

Tipping these guys up, watering less this week, and generally letting the roots get established more seems to have perked them up. Seeing some soft wood growth and healthier leaves on many of them. They were pretty neglected before I picked them up and then roughened up by me during a time when they shouldn't be. But I think they're all likely to make it through the winter. Especially if they continue growing strong this fall.