Overwinter Issues

lieuz

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This is my second year overwintering my tropicals indoors with an indoor grow tent and a grow light. The previous year, I've had some lessons learned, for the most part, the trees did very well; however, this year I'm having some brand new issues. Things I've changed from last year, flowering trees attract pests so I'm overwintering in a protected hoop house outdoors (pomegranates). Bougainvilleas also attracted a lot of pests so I've prepped myself, should they flower, I'm clipping them off. However, instead of anticipating blooms, I'm noticing a lot of my foliage is turning yellow and staying yellow for an extended period of time. The yellow leaves will ultimately fall off and some even crisp up. This isn't appearing on just my bougainvillea. At first, I thought I was overwatering, I don't believe I'm overwatering as I water every other day and by then, I'm at the point where I'd be uncomfortable to let it go any further without water. On the second day, it's still a bit damp, by the morning of the third day is when I usually water. The other thing I did was elevate the entire floor up about 9 inches so the trees aren't sitting in a puddle of water. I thought maybe it could be because I'm not fertilizing enough, so I added some slow-release fertilizer. It's been about 3 weeks since I've started to fertilize and I'm starting to be concerned. Does anyone have any similar experiences?
 

BonsaiNaga13

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Tropicals usually drop leaves when moved indoors and grow new indoor leaves and the same for movin em back outside in spring. Indoor leaves droop and new outdoor leaves grow
 

lieuz

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Tropicals usually drop leaves when moved indoors and grow new indoor leaves and the same for movin em back outside in spring. Indoor leaves droop and new outdoor leaves grow
It's been almost three months since they've come in.
 

LittleDingus

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Do you have some pics?

Do you know if the temps dropped recently? Are they still under lights? Or natural lighting now that they are in a hoop house? It could be short days and cooler temps triggered some leaf drop??

My next suspicions would be pests...are the leaves curling before dropping? Are they uniformly yellowing, or are they blotchy?
 

Carol 83

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It's been almost three months since they've come in.
Mine typically drop some leaves (sometimes a lot) when they first come inside. If they've been inside that long, it's probably something else. How much light are they getting?
 

lieuz

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Do you have some pics?

Do you know if the temps dropped recently? Are they still under lights? Or natural lighting now that they are in a hoop house? It could be short days and cooler temps triggered some leaf drop??

My next suspicions would be pests...are the leaves curling before dropping? Are they uniformly yellowing, or are they blotchy?
Hoop house plants aren't a concern, the tropicals are now in my grow tent and they're currently under lights. The tent is one of those reflective tents that reflect all the lights around. No leaf curling. There seems to be some uniformity when they turn. The bougainvillea is dropping leaves pretty immediately when they came in. No new leaves have emerged and it's pretty yellow. I will get some pictures in here soon.
 

lieuz

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Mine typically drop some leaves (sometimes a lot) when they first come inside. If they've been inside that long, it's probably something else. How much light are they getting?
They get a total of 14 hours of light every day. The light is King Plus LED 2000W light fixture. Here is an image of the light and what it's uses are for.
71C5JCJq%2BRL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

Currently, I'm running it pretty close to 12"-18" feet with both colors lights on (far right picture). I'm concerned I might be stressing the trees because I'm forcing the tree to do something it doesn't want to dot? Maybe the light should be on straight VEG (blue) mode and be set up 24"-30" high. The only thing that blooms is the bougainvillea. I worry I might be burning tree up because the bougainvillea shows the most stress with over 70% of it's leaves having dropped. No new leaves have really emerged. Most of the leaves dropping are crispy.
 

Carol 83

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the bougainvillea shows the most stress with over 70% of it's leaves having dropped. No new leaves have really emerged.
I wouldn't be overly worried, they normally drop leaves after coming in, although mine didn't drop as many this year. Sometimes they pout for a bit, before starting to grow again.
Most of the leaves dropping are crispy
That may be concerning. Pictures would help.
 

LittleDingus

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They get a total of 14 hours of light every day. The light is King Plus LED 2000W light fixture. Here is an image of the light and what it's uses are for.
71C5JCJq%2BRL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

Currently, I'm running it pretty close to 12"-18" feet with both colors lights on (far right picture). I'm concerned I might be stressing the trees because I'm forcing the tree to do something it doesn't want to dot? Maybe the light should be on straight VEG (blue) mode and be set up 24"-30" high. The only thing that blooms is the bougainvillea. I worry I might be burning tree up because the bougainvillea shows the most stress with over 70% of it's leaves having dropped. No new leaves have really emerged. Most of the leaves dropping are crispy.
I don't have that model, but all my lights are blue/red LED. My "2000W" model dries up my redwood and lice oak foliage when they are dormant and the light is only 12" away. I just shook off all those dead leaves off a few weeks ago so can't get a good picture now :(

The blue light is pretty harsh...and very energetic. It can burn chlorophyll pretty quick. If the tree is not in active growth, it might not be replacing chlorophyll as fast as when actively growing. Couple that with typical dry inside conditions in winter and that could be what's burning your leaves. Pics would help...

You also need to keep in mind that, even though not always advertised as such, the vast majority of research on LED lights is from the cannabis industry :) Much of the marketing shows citrus (as your pictures) or other food crops, but what they really mean is marijuana! They are simply transferring that research to other food crops to either market to areas where cannabis growing is still illegal or to sell to a few extra plant enthusiasts like us. But the target consumer grows marijuana. As a result, you may may have to adjust their suggestions for you plants/conditions. During dormancy, I find I need the lights more like 24" plus away to not burn foliage. During active growth, I can shorten that distance for some trees. For others, they begin to act strange under the harsh blue lights. Some turn away from the light. I have a p afra that looks like a weeping form (it's not) because it is turning from the light. I've had dawn redwoods that stunted their leader and grew branches only. Other plants love the blue! My baobabs can grow right into the lights without harm. My orchid flower stems bend into the lights as well. Point is, learn how your trees react and adjust accordingly.
 

lieuz

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Unless you are willing to post pictures of the trees as they are now, there isnt much we can do to help you except conjecture.
You're too right, I absolutely will get on posting pictures ASAP.
 

LanceMac10

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line of dead bougies eight deep....but one still makes it thru....
DSC00709.JPG

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mid sept....cooler it got, the more it flowered......crazy, but I would go to Bonsai West off season and wham, tight flowering bougies to the rafters...wtf......


wonder if in temperate climates,in pot culture, they might benefit from a short "cool" period?
 

Carol 83

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line of dead bougies eight deep....but one still makes it thru....
View attachment 346958

View attachment 346959

mid sept....cooler it got, the more it flowered......crazy, but I would go to Bonsai West off season and wham, tight flowering bougies to the rafters...wtf......


wonder if in temperate climates,in pot culture, they might benefit from a short "cool" period?
I think they might. I left all my trops out longer than usual, refusing to do the 2 step. They saw 40's for sure, probably some 30's. (they were up close to the house) And two of my bougies are blooming for the 2nd time this winter.
 

lieuz

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Happy New Year! As promised, I snagged some pictures and posting them. I've noticed some of the trees have rebounded a bit. There was definitely a bit more promise this go-round, I've started noticing some changes on the bougainvillea. I think the only thing I've started doing more was monitoring moisture levels and I specifically kept the bougainvillea moister than before. I didn't allow it to dry out so it was almost like a daily misting and that coincided with the appearance of new foliage growth.

20210103_215039.jpg
The grow light was not turned on during this picture. I have two studio lights I used to illuminate the entire interior of the tent. Note the elevated base, they are crates that elevate the entire base off the bottom of the tent 9". This way the trees aren't sitting in a puddle of water for an extended period of time. In last year's experience, that puddle of water definitely evaporated by the next day so it may have helped keep the trees hydrated longer. With the bougainvillea as an indicator with leaves crisping up and dropping, the light might be too strong for it.

20210103_215043.jpg
You can see how bad the bougainvillea got once placed indoors.

20210103_215058.jpg
Here is a closer view of the older growth. Note the new growth peeking through! I am pretty stoked about it. This is where I'm at, this is the point where I am wondering maybe I'm not fertilizing enough. Last year I didn't fertilize at all and saw some yellowing as well but def not as bad as this. Def still new to this as this is my second go-round with the tent. Also, note the portulacaria leaves off to the side.

20210103_215118.jpg
Signs of life, the fertilizer I've been applying is in teabags and is from Happy Frog. The fertilizer I'm using is for maples with a ratio of 4:3:4. I started applying this fertilizer a few weeks back, starting 12/12. So a few weeks in, this is probably due to the fertilizer I've applied and it's kicking in.

20210103_215151.jpg
From my understanding, this is a ficus rubiginosa, and it seems to have yellowing globally.

20210103_215125.jpg
Here is my portulacaria. I've found the leaves started dropping maybe a month in. But the yellowing started around that time as well. No dried tips as the old leaves have fallen off and the fine tertiary branching is still in good standing with newer growth. The canopy has the most yellowing, while the lower pads don't have the level of yellowing. Even if I were to call this change in foliage color, it's not all yellow. There is a very slight hint of red which sort of signifies to me that this is a different type of change. My possible reasoning is as listed below with some background information in parenthesis:

Reason 1: When the plant is exposed to a lot of sun, especially full sun. (My yard is a north facing yard, the time this tree came in was in October and even at that point, the sun has dipped below enough where the house casts the winter shadow over the yard, this tree is not getting the full dose of very strong light since October)

Reason 2: When the weather turns really hot or really cold. You will notice your plant turning red or changing colors during the hot summer months and cold winter months. (The tent is definitely above 45 degrees which is the threshold for most plants. The tent rarely gets below 60.)

Reason 3: When the plant is watered sparingly. When the plant is not receiving regular watering it starts to appear less green and you will notice it turning a different shade. (This is possible, it definitely is allowed to dry out quite a bit before the next watering. In the summer it is barely allowed to completely dry, possible exposure to this prolonged watering schedule of mine may cause the tree to turn colors.)

Reason 4: When the plant is not well fed. When you do not feed or fertilize your plant regularly, you will notice the color changes in your plant. (This tree is well fed during the summer growing season, but in the grow tent with intense lighting may cause this tree to definitely feel a bit hungry and a missed fertilization period during the winter months is probably making this tree hangry.)

Reason 5: When the plant is in poor soil. Along with not fertilizing regularly, when your plant is sitting in infertile soil or soil that is not rich in nutrients, you will see these color changes more. (Not likely that it's in poor soil, but coupled with no fertilization is a very viable reason.)

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Lower branches below the canopy.

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Closer inspection of the canopy foliage.

In conclusion, I think I will have to water my trees a bit more now since I feel like the elevation change of this year's overwintering elevated it off the puddle that kept the tree hydrated by half a day longer. At least observe the soil moisture conditions daily. Fertilization seems to be the key. I use the happy frog fertilizer because it's not excessively high in nitrogen but is an all-around fertilizer for overwintering plants. Nothing seems to add up if I were to consider adjusting the red and blue light. It seems apparent, I'm forcing the trees to grow with this intense light but no food for them to take nutrients from to rely on. If you go back to the first picture, note the upper left corner of the two trees. Those are still in nursery pots and they definitely have osmocote in them from the sellers which makes sense because they're still green.

Another example I've seen where fertilizer was missing, is in this juniper. I asked the seller regarding the foliage coloring and she said it is a lack of fertilization indicator.
90713233_675322099677481_3176866599874490025_n.jpg

Sure enough, midway into the growing season and after intense fertilization, the tree definitely rebounded.
106402375_895139767662157_1945783207163273248_n.jpg

Definitely one of those cases that took me a while to apply the process of elimination. I'd love to hear some insight from others who maybe have this issue?
 

Paradox

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How often do you water the trees in the tent?

I dont use a tent for my tropicals, but I do check them every day and water them almost every day
I have a tray under the pots and each pot is placed on 3 to 4 2 inch ceramic tiles so they dont sit in water.
I water until it runs out into the tray underneath so they do get some humidity from that but not much

This is my set up
 

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Carol 83

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I don't think I've ever seen a Jade with yellow leaves like that.
 

lieuz

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How often do you water the trees in the tent?

I dont use a tent for my tropicals, but I do check them every day and water them almost every day
I have a tray under the pots and each pot is placed on 3 to 4 2 inch ceramic tiles so they dont sit in water.
I water until it runs out into the tray underneath so they do get some humidity from that but not much

This is my set up
I usually water it every other day; but, given what I know now. I'm going to water it every day if I can. I water it until it runs from below the pot as well.
 

lieuz

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I don't think I've ever seen a Jade with yellow leaves like that.
Unfortunately, neither have I. This is very strange to me. If it's yellow just go yellow, there are like hints of red which I have never seen before.
 
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