Oyster shells ok?

[Srt8madness]

Have you tried bonsai jack?

Probably a mint to ship from Florida to Alaska

 

[berzerkules]

Have you tried bonsai jack?

it's just hard to make the leap to online prices after sourcing things local probably, I know I feel the same way about pine mulch.

Exactly. It's almost 5x the price before shipping.

 

[19Mateo83]

Probably a mint to ship from Florida to Alaska

It’s free shipping

 

[berzerkules]

It’s free shipping

Shipping to Alaska from them is only free if you order less than 3.5 gallons. That's less than 1/2 a cubic foot so it would still be about 2x what I was paying for less than half as much pumice. I would also need to place something like 25 orders to get what I've used so far this year. Or I could just pay shipping and get the big 24 gallon bags but there are better options out there. I have yet to find a source for shipping any useable quantity of any substrate up here that's reasonable.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

Where is said cheap pumice?

Fifth season gardening co has it for cheap, they are in asheville, carboro, and i think Greensboro

 

[bbk]

Shipping to Alaska from them is only free if you order less than 3.5 gallons. That's less than 1/2 a cubic foot so it would still be about 2x what I was paying for less than half as much pumice. I would also need to place something like 25 orders to get what I've used so far this year. Or I could just pay shipping and get the big 24 gallon bags but there are better options out there. I have yet to find a source for shipping any useable quantity of any substrate up here that's reasonable.

Perfectly demonstrating the point about why people should consider different substrates relevant to their locale or just their circumstances.

 

[penumbra]

Perfectly demonstrating the point about why people should consider different substrates relevant to their locale or just their circumstances.

Gotta say, although this thread is pretty disjointed, the above statement is true.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Still, there are bad choices, oyster shell being one of them based upon prior results and obvious flaws.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Perfectly demonstrating the point about why people should consider different substrates relevant to their locale or just their circumstances.

I would change this quote to "why people have to consider different substrates".

There is a big difference between what is "best" and what you need to go with due to cost / availability. As soon as you start substituting soil components I think it is only logical to assume you will start substituting soil results, depending on how close your substitution is.

For all I know there might be some soil components in Alaska that perform like pumice, but I would rely on testing versus guessing. pH, density/void space/water retention, piece size, fines... all matter. If you take a quantitative approach, oyster shells would be tossed immediately due to the pH impact on the soil blend.

FWIW, the pumice they sell at Fifth Season Gardening is really low quality. Very dirty, dusty and you absolutely need to screen it and expect you will get a large quantity of dust, fines, and large pieces well outside of their quoted 1/4" - 3/8" claim. Additionally the pumice is very heavy, with a high density. Buy a bag of pumice from Brad at Bonsai Learning Center and you will see there is no comparison. So not all horticultural pumice is created equal. The pumice I've been getting from Brad is higher quality than the pumice I was using on the West Coast. (This paragraph is specifically for people looking for pumice in the Charlotte area)

 

[rockm]

Although oyster middens (huge piles of oyster shells resulting from consumption of oysters over centuries) can support a huge variety of trees, etc., newly shucked oysters aren't a great bonsai soil ingredient. Oyster middens are hundreds of years old. They've been backfilled with topsoil and have leached out a lot of their alkalinity. Oyster shells out of a bag or from newly shucked oysters haven't had that treatment. Using that as a soil ingredient will produce a high-alkaline soil that will inhibit root growth, and possibly even kill more acid-loving species.

Yes, local ingredients are valuable, BUT using them simply because they're local and cheap can be shortsighted.

 

[Civilengr3]

Gotta say, although this thread is pretty disjointed, the above statement is true.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Still, there are bad choices, oyster shell being one of them based upon prior results and obvious flaws.

And this is exactly the answer I was looking for, along with the reasons stated at the first. Being brand new to all this it’s fascinating to me the reasons for/against various substrates. I think I’ll stick to pine bark and brick and pumice.

 

[Srt8madness]

It’s free shipping

Typically advertised shipping rates exclude AK and HI

 

[Srt8madness]

Although oyster middens (huge piles of oyster shells resulting from consumption of oysters over centuries) can support a huge variety of trees, etc., newly shucked oysters aren't a great bonsai soil ingredient. Oyster middens are hundreds of years old. They've been backfilled with topsoil and have leached out a lot of their alkalinity. Oyster shells out of a bag or from newly shucked oysters haven't had that treatment. Using that as a soil ingredient will produce a high-alkaline soil that will inhibit root growth, and possibly even kill more acid-loving species.

Yes, local ingredients are valuable, BUT using them simply because they're local and cheap can be shortsighted.

Thanks for sharing. I found this bit interesting
"Oyster shell has the effect of neutralizing soil acidity that would otherwise hasten the decay of plant material. Therefore, the small number edible plant remains that survive suggests that the inhabitants were not there during summer or fall, when edible plants would have been collected and many remains discarded."

Basically the shells created a time capsule.

Also, too alkaline to be a soil component

 

[rockm]

Thanks for sharing. I found this bit interesting
"Oyster shell has the effect of neutralizing soil acidity that would otherwise hasten the decay of plant material. Therefore, the small number edible plant remains that survive suggests that the inhabitants were not there during summer or fall, when edible plants would have been collected and many remains discarded."

Basically the shells created a time capsule.

Also, too alkaline to be a soil component

Yeah, it's THAT alkaline...

 

[penumbra]

I think I’ll stick to pine bark and brick and pumice.

I would love to have some crushed brick but I don't want to do the crushing. Seems like it would be an awesome planting medium, and attractive as well.

 

[rockm]

I would change this quote to "why people have to consider different substrates".

There is a big difference between what is "best" and what you need to go with due to cost / availability. As soon as you start substituting soil components I think it is only logical to assume you will start substituting soil results, depending on how close your substitution is.

For all I know there might be some soil components in Alaska that perform like pumice, but I would rely on testing versus guessing. pH, density/void space/water retention, piece size, fines... all matter. If you take a quantitative approach, oyster shells would be tossed immediately due to the pH impact on the soil blend.

FWIW, the pumice they sell at Fifth Season Gardening is really low quality. Very dirty, dusty and you absolutely need to screen it and expect you will get a large quantity of dust, fines, and large pieces well outside of their quoted 1/4" - 3/8" claim. Additionally the pumice is very heavy, with a high density. Buy a bag of pumice from Brad at Bonsai Learning Center and you will see there is no comparison. So not all horticultural pumice is created equal. The pumice I've been getting from Brad is higher quality than the pumice I was using on the West Coast. (This paragraph is specifically for people looking for pumice in the Charlotte area)

Yup. Got a bag of pumice from Bonsai Learning Center a while back. Agree.

 

[penumbra]

Yeah, it's THAT alkaline...

And why we used it as a buffering medium in marine systems back in the 1970s.

 

[rockm]

I would love to have some crushed brick but I don't want to do the crushing. Seems like it would be an awesome planting medium, and attractive as well.

They sell crushed brick, but it's mostly not crushed enough. I've bought it in the past, but had to discard about 80-90 percent of it after sifting.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yup. Got a bag of pumice from Bonsai Learning Center a while back. Agree.

I bought a pallet last year. If you buy bulk he will cut you a deal on price.

Also, I have been talking with Statesville Brick about brick fines (at their manufacturing facility), and Stalite about a smaller piece size on their expanded shale. I just have to drive out to both locations and pick up samples for testing. The Stalite product is going to be a smaller piece size than what they sell at retail as "Vole Bloc" or "Permatil". For the Stalite I need to buy in pallet quantities, but the price is not too prohibitive if I pick up at their facility.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

I would change this quote to "why people have to consider different substrates".

There is a big difference between what is "best" and what you need to go with due to cost / availability. As soon as you start substituting soil components I think it is only logical to assume you will start substituting soil results, depending on how close your substitution is.

For all I know there might be some soil components in Alaska that perform like pumice, but I would rely on testing versus guessing. pH, density/void space/water retention, piece size, fines... all matter. If you take a quantitative approach, oyster shells would be tossed immediately due to the pH impact on the soil blend.

FWIW, the pumice they sell at Fifth Season Gardening is really low quality. Very dirty, dusty and you absolutely need to screen it and expect you will get a large quantity of dust, fines, and large pieces well outside of their quoted 1/4" - 3/8" claim. Additionally the pumice is very heavy, with a high density. Buy a bag of pumice from Brad at Bonsai Learning Center and you will see there is no comparison. So not all horticultural pumice is created equal. The pumice I've been getting from Brad is higher quality than the pumice I was using on the West Coast. (This paragraph is specifically for people looking for pumice in the Charlotte area)

Agreed the Inported hyuga pumice that brad sells is far superior to anything that comes from the west cost, but it is more expensive.

my point was to present a more budget friendly source of pumice. I use that pumice exclusively for container growing japanese maples. Add some high quality potting mix and some bark and they love it. I wouldn’t use it for an old established specimen bonsai unless i had to, and to your point it would have to be screened and sifted thoroughly.

 

[rockm]

I bought a pallet last year. If you buy bulk he will cut you a deal on price.

Also, I have been talking with Statesville Brick about brick fines (at their manufacturing facility), and Stalite about a smaller piece size on their expanded shale. I just have to drive out to both locations and pick up samples for testing. The Stalite product is going to be a smaller piece size than what they sell at retail as "Vole Bloc" or "Permatil". For the Stalite I need to buy in pallet quantities, but the price is not too prohibitive if I pick up at their facility.

I've used permatill (stalite) before. As you note, that is too coarse for bonsai soil. It could be a terrific soil ingredient if you can get a smaller diameter particle.