Particle size and easiest way to get it?

[DaDude]

This seems to be a highly debated topic, which lead to lots of confusion for a beginner like me. Is there a definitive size for a given size tree? Is it really that crucial for every piece to be exactly 1/4" for instance? Il'll use lava rock for example, everyone knows buying graded lava rock is crazy expensive so like a lot I bought some landscape rocks and smashed them. Here's what I ended up with.
#1 1/2-1/4

#2 1/4-1/8

#3 1/8-Sand


Is it a big deal the mixed sizes?
Which grade would be best?
Should I tumble them to get rid of the sharp edges? This will prob make the bigger 1/2 pieces more like 3/8 prob
How in the world do I get just "1/4" pieces? I've tried various screens square and round even drilled out a couple colander to various sizes and it seems impossible to get only one size
Any help appreciated

 

[Vance Wood]

You are making the proverbial mountain out of a mole hill. I don't know of one tree used for bonsai that has to have a uniform soil mix as you are trying to obtain. What you have there is fin even if you have all of them in the same mix. The point is to have elements that will not breakdown and become compacted over the period of three to five years.

 

[Rodrigo]

I'm halfway through rewatching Ryan Neil's Spring Fundamentals stream and he mentions that the ideal particle size to grow the best roots is 1/4"-1/16" or 1/8" depending on how wet your environment is. Can you fill in your location so we can give better advice?

 

[DaDude]

Sure I'm in miami, fl. It is very humid most of the year and rains April to november. Pretty much all year. I've got dwarf plums and a juniper. Potted in mostly bark and sand compost. I move them under the patio for heavy rains but don't want to have to do that any more. Ive read the coarse pieces are fine so it drains extra fast but don't want the trees falling over which is why i ask about The size and uniformity. Never used a mostly inorganic soil. Then again the books I read are from 1986 and say to use Loam, leaf mould, compost and sand which has worked ok I guess. Pots are roughly 6x4 1/2 and don't have wire tying holes

 

[DaDude]

You are making the proverbial mountain out of a mole hill. I don't know of one tree used for bonsai that has to have a uniform soil mix as you are trying to obtain. What you have there is fin even if you have all of them in the same mix. The point is to have elements that will not breakdown and become compacted over the period of three to five years.

In a sense your probably right but ive made so many mistAkes already I figure I should ask more questions before going any further. Not exactly trying to achieve a uniform exact size. I reference 1/4" because that's the most common size I see and most screened stuff I see is perfect sized and for what they charge it should be!

 

[GGB]

@DaDude I'm glad you asked because I've been at this too long to ask at this point. But I'm starting to gather that everyone does it different, and all with success. Some folks don't even sift out fines

 

[bonsaidave]

Soil screens. Looks like you already did a good job of it. It's never going to be perfect and that is just fine. Especially when beginning bonsai. So many other things to worry about.

Without wire the trees have a chance of blowing over in wind. If your pots have at least one drainage hole that is all you need to anchor the tree with wire.

I personally wouldn't use super fine bits like that sand on most of my trees. On very small (Mame) trees I might use it.

You can always get a spare pot and dump the soil in to test watering. See if it drains well or not. You just have to dry and sift it again before repotting your trees.

Pic of my soil I used last year:

Making it MUCH simpler this year. Sizes are probably 1/8 - 1/4. I sifted, mixed, and washed to get what you see in the picture. Might be overkill but it's all part of my learning process. Plus it's still fun.

I'm still trying to figure out this bonsai stuff myself ?

 

[bonsaidave]

@DaDude Just in case you need it. How to secure you tree in a pot. Multiple ways with multiple types of pots.
https://bonsaitonight.com/2016/12/27/secure-bonsai-pot/

 

[Vance Wood]

The most important thing about a soil mix is this one simple principle: It does not break down and change its field capacity over a measured length of time.
The above is fraught with an abundance of conditions. It does not break down: Even the holy grail of bonsai soil elements, Akadama a very expensive imported product from Japan, breaks down in as short a time as three years. When a soil element breaks down the field capacity (the ability to hold water and the amount it holds) changes for the worse. As the field capacity goes up----the ability of the soil to drain off excess moisture goes down. This also means that if you are not paying attention to how the soil is draining you may not notice that the soil is holding more and more water. As the ability of the soil to drain off excess moisture goes down the soils retention of water goes up and the soils ability to breath goes down. The soil breathes;--- when the air that it contains is driven out by the addition of water;----as the water drains out it draws in air. This is a breathing soil. A soil that breaths cannot promote the growth of colonies of phytophator fungas which causes root rot and kills your trees.

If you have considered and have come to grasp the importance of the above you will realize that the products you use in making a soil mix are not half as important as how they perform in field conditions provided they are not toxic to begin with.

 

[sorce]

Folks in Florida use Napa 8822 with success.... @GroveKeeper
Some also looking to switch. @drew33998

I use it, and find buying a bag more economical than smashing rocks!

And I am King of Do dumb shit!
Still haven't gotten around to smashing rocks! Though I found a bag in the alley once, and kept it to smash!
Never did!

Peep the oil dry thread.

Welcome to Crazy!

What does wire tie holes have to do with soil?

Drainage?

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

Very simple,

[ 1] Can you get the gravel they use for mixing in concrete?

You can use 5 mm or so, with compost. No more than 1/3 by volume compost
Think shovel fulls.

[2] You can use the hydroponic pebbles also at 5 mm or so in size and compost.

If you use different sizes, think about how concrete is made.
Compaction for a dense mix.

Join a club, ask questions.
Good Luck
Anthony

 

[DaDude]

@DaDude Just in case you need it. How to secure you tree in a pot. Multiple ways with multiple types of pots.
https://bonsaitonight.com/2016/12/27/secure-bonsai-pot/

Hey thanks for the reply, your soil looks great btw! Its funny this is the first line cause its exactly how i felt when i found out "When I first heard that bonsai are commonly wired into the pot I thought, “That sounds crazy – you must be kidding me!”"
but it makes sense especially with the taller forest styles in shallow pots. good read thanks again

 

[DaDude]

The most important thing about a soil mix is this one simple principle: It does not break down and change its field capacity over a measured length of time.
The above is fraught with an abundance of conditions. It does not break down: Even the holy grail of bonsai soil elements, Akadama a very expensive imported product from Japan, breaks down in as short a time as three years. When a soil element breaks down the field capacity (the ability to hold water and the amount it holds) changes for the worse. As the field capacity goes up----the ability of the soil to drain off excess moisture goes down. This also means that if you are not paying attention to how the soil is draining you may not notice that the soil is holding more and more water. As the ability of the soil to drain off excess moisture goes down the soils retention of water goes up and the soils ability to breath goes down. The soil breathes;--- when the air that it contains is driven out by the addition of water;----as the water drains out it draws in air. This is a breathing soil. A soil that breaths cannot promote the growth of colonies of phytophator fungas which causes root rot and kills your trees.

If you have considered and have come to grasp the importance of the above you will realize that the products you use in making a soil mix are not half as important as how they perform in field conditions provided they are not toxic to begin with.

i appreciate the explanation! i never thought of it that way but it makes sense the water would push out the air and draw in fresh air as it drains.

 

[DaDude]

Folks in Florida use Napa 8822 with success.... @GroveKeeper
Some also looking to switch. @drew33998

I use it, and find buying a bag more economical than smashing rocks!

And I am King of Do dumb shit!
Still haven't gotten around to smashing rocks! Though I found a bag in the alley once, and kept it to smash!
Never did!

Peep the oil dry thread.

Welcome to Crazy!

What does wire tie holes have to do with soil?

Drainage?

Sorce

thanks for the welcome!
i saw the oil dry stuff (diatomaceous earth) and researched the napa and the autozone moltan oil absorbent. while most report great success with it as you, i also read alot of people complaining about it mushing up and falling apart fast and shied away from it. Some say the product can differ from batch to batch so i wasnt up to taking the gamble.
Reason i mentioned the wire tie holes in relation to soil is i am afraid the plant will get blown over or easly knocked down planted in loose inorganic substrate. the link bonsaidave posted fixes that!

 

[DaDude]

@DaDude I'm glad you asked because I've been at this too long to ask at this point. But I'm starting to gather that everyone does it different, and all with success. Some folks don't even sift out fines

no problemo!

 

[DaDude]

Very simple,

[ 1] Can you get the gravel they use for mixing in concrete?

You can use 5 mm or so, with compost. No more than 1/3 by volume compost
Think shovel fulls.

[2] You can use the hydroponic pebbles also at 5 mm or so in size and compost.

If you use different sizes, think about how concrete is made.
Compaction for a dense mix.

Join a club, ask questions.
Good Luck
Anthony

good call on the hydroponic pebbles, i saw some at home depot the other day and was super expensive, did a quick search now and not too bad!
do you know what pebbles are used in concrete? i think down here they use limestone for the concrete

 

[Anthony]

@DaDude ,

Try this in google --------- where to find silica gravel in Florida
There were around six companies.
_____________________________________________________________

Florida Silica Sand Company  

Website

Directions

4.65 Google reviews

Sand plant in West Little River, Florida

Address: 8500 NW 36th Ave, Miami, FL 33147, USA

Hours:
Closed ⋅ Opens 7:30AM


Phone: +1 305-691-5881

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Florida Silica Sand Company  

Website

Directions

Retaining wall supplier in Dania Beach, Florida

Address: 2962 Trivium Cir #105, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33312, USA

Phone: +1 954-923-8323

 

[DaDude]

ill check that out Anthony thanks.

i was researching the hydro pebbles(expanded clay) and well from what ive read they float! so does perlite and ive read some pumice can float too?! wth it rains hard here all the time and that stuff will just wash out no matter how fast it drains. am i missing something? isnt akadama expanded clay from japan?

 

[drew33998]

Folks in Florida use Napa 8822 with success.... @GroveKeeper
Some also looking to switch. @drew33998

I use it, and find buying a bag more economical than smashing rocks!

And I am King of Do dumb shit!
Still haven't gotten around to smashing rocks! Though I found a bag in the alley once, and kept it to smash!
Never did!

Peep the oil dry thread.

Welcome to Crazy!

What does wire tie holes have to do with soil?

Drainage?

Sorce

I think adding lava to it is a must. It stays wet for far too long by itself during our rainy season. Aside from that I can control the high moisture by watering less often during the non-wet season. And then there is the small particle size...

 

[Anthony]

@DaDude ,

not sure what to tell you about the floating expanded fired clay.
We have heavy rain here, but I have yet to see the pebbles float any where.

Maybe because we repot during our dry season [ Christmas to around May / June,
and the roots have taken command of the pot, by the time the rains return.

@drew33998,
The red lava is similar to our crushed red brick,we use it for thirsty trees, by
substituting out some silica based gravel for it.
That we we don't have to increase the compost and risk making an overwet
soil.
Good Day
Anthony